Setting Stigma Straight

In this episode Aidan, Euan and Louis discuss the social and societal stigmas around male mental health, their experiences in dealing with these stigmas and how they affect men everywhere.

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If you were distressed by any of the content in this episode or feel you need extra support, please find  some further resources below:

• Student Space–Online, one-stop shop’ for students in England and Wales who want to find help for their mental health or well-being.
• Student Minds website- Information about different support services available, including how to find them and what to expect when using them for the first time.
• Your GP Service- can refer to specialist support and services.
• University Student Support Services e.g. counselling, mental health advisers, student advice centre, students’ union.
• Samaritans-phone 116 123, email jo@samaritans.org
• HOPELine UK-phone 0800 068 41 41: confidential service specifically for young people (under 35). They can offer crisis support for someone who is experiencing thoughts or feelings of suicide, as well as providing information and advice for those concerned about someone else.
• Papyrus: email pat@papyrus.uk.org
• Students Against Depression- The Students Against Depression website has lots of information about tackling depression and low mood, including self -help resources and workbooks for students to work through to start taking steps towards tackling low mood.
• NHS 111-Non-emergency line run by the NHS.
• 999-for an emergency situation.

Transcript

Aidan: 0:00

Welcome to the Changing MENtality podcast. This is just let you know that the following episode contains discussions of anxiety and depression, suicide and the covid 19 pandemic. If you find yourself distressed by any of these topics, there will be a link in the description for you to find that support. Thank you and enjoy the episode. Welcome to the change in mentality podcast, conversations, stories, interviews on the topic of men mental health, which are hosted by a group of male students sharing their own experiences to help eliminate stigma, raise awareness and signpost others to find the help they need. Today we're gonna be talking about mental health stigma and how this influences men in particular. And I'm with two male students a year in and Louis and we're just going to have a conversation about this and see where it takes us. So would you like to introduce yourself?

Euan: 0:56

Hey, I'm Euan McDonnell, I'm a computational biology PhD student based at the University of Leeds.

Louis: 1:02

I am Louis, you said I'm a second year politics student also based at the University of Leeds.

Aidan: 1:07

And I'm Aidan Flinn. I am a postgraduate at King's College London studying early intervention in psychosis. start this conversation off, we are all well aware of the prevalence of mental health disorders in men. Some studies have estimated to be as high as 12.5% is suffering from one of the common mental health disorders, which is anxiety and depression. So I just wanted to throw it out to either one of you. What does mental health stigma mean to you? How can we define this?

Euan: 1:39

I think it's kind of at least my perspective, it's almost like a learned thing, that sort of relating to things like learned helplessness in the sense that you're kind of told by society at large that there's a certain way you're meant to act a certain way you're meant to be. And you kind of internalise that at some point. And because of that, it's kind of this self feeding loop, right? where it becomes, you feel like you can't open up because society is expecting you not to be open expecting to be stoic and be strong. And you're kind of viewed as a bit of an outsider or as a bit of a kind of weakness for showing that you have these things that you were dealing and you were suffering from. And then that's obviously, some of the worst way to view these kind of things, because it's so damaging to have these kind of turmoil going on inside. You

Louis: 2:25

know, it's absolutely the same, I think it's, it's what you said is all the societal expectations, especially for men, it's like focused around traditional masculinity, roles and actions, everything, I think we're always sort of taught by society to not really be so open about our emotions, and we can't, we don't always feel like we can talk about them. And I think, as Euan said it all, it also feeds into that suffering in silence or narrative that a lot of men go through. And the under use of mental health services is just prevalent throughout our agenda, basically, just because of the societal expectations and the negative connotations that they have on us.

Aidan: 3:06

So basically, we kind of, we agree in the best way to paraphrase it, like the stiff upper lip culture that comes with being a man that you can't show emotions, you need to continually be the domineering strong person in any kind of interaction that you have, that any sign of weakness is, we're basically taught to eliminate that and not talk about it, because that affects the image that we portray.

Louis: 3:36

Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, when you talk about sort of any sign of weakness that's often equivocated with mental health issues, because I think that's even a stigma like universally between men and women as well, is the fact that mental health issues can be seen as a sign of weakness. And I think it's especially prevalent among men because of the effects of those traditional masculine roles.

Euan: 4:00

I think it's kind of echoed in how men tend to respond to these sort of situations like a mental illnesses, like depression, anxiety is it tends to be quite a kind of extroverted, outward, kind of otherwise they blame necessary, but they look for the solution in something outside of them. That tends to manifest and kind of anger or irritability or aggressiveness or risk taking, and sort of a blaming of underlying biology rather than kind of understanding it as more of a kind of psycho emotional problem.

Aidan: 4:30

It's one of those things that failed. Obviously, mental health difficulties are going to affect everyone differently, because we're all individual, we all have differences and not going to react the same way when presented to in front of different environmental or internal stimuli. But in terms of men, this society, cultural masculinity, as you said, kind of reacted a certain way to being shown is whenever we're disrespected when we're weak when we're struggling, and we have to act to reinforce that stereotype. So the stereotypical man is viewed as aggressive and domineering, and needs needs to fend for themselves or whoever they're sworn to protect. So when there seems weakness, we're not able to do that. It said men take more angry, frustrated. So how does this lead into the the mental health epidemic that we're seeing with men? So what is their reactions? And how does it make things worse,

Euan: 5:38

I think it's, I think there's an aspect relating to that, in that it's quite individualistic, in the sense of it's a man's job to, you know, deal with his own emotions and sort of face up against the world by himself. And you can kind of get ideas of that apparently, men tend to when they talk about their depression, you as much more of this sort of, you know, it's me alone against the world kind of mentality. So that means I'm much less likely to seek support from other people or friends and, you know, kind of understand themselves more within less within a kind of, sort of, I guess. So john wayne, styles, I don't know, who's the who's Clint Eastwood, that's when Clint Eastwood you know, like, stoic kind of aggressive, but not nice, having a violent kind of, you know, gritty getting things done by yourself. Whereas, you know, rather than the blogging part of society that affected the, you know, helps look out for each other and supports themselves.

Louis: 6:35

Yeah, I think the thing is that about the society as well, like, you've got those societal expectations, structured around traditional masculinity, and it also feeds into our own sort of internal expectations of ourselves. It's just, it's a, it's quite a vicious cycle, really, because you have those societal expectations that you've discussed, where it's like, men, especially in media, like you've spoken about Clint Eastwood and everything, you've got those traditionally masculine figures throughout films and TV, who are often like very assertive and domineering. And then sometimes if we're in a situation where perhaps we don't feel like that's, you know, the right way forward, then we always feel like we're not fulfilling our role as a man in some kind of way, because we're going against those traditional roles. But I think that's because society sort of feeds that idea into us that we should be that assertive, domineering person, even though in modern society, a lot of those attributes aren't what's needed anymore, I think emotional intelligence and other soft that were traditionally softer. I think it applies to everyone. But more emotional attributes are needed in today's society. So it's almost like those expectations have become outdated, but they're still within us, and it still affects us, like every day.

Euan: 7:54

Yeah, I think there's a very much a kind of unconscious element to it. And there's also kind of the idea that stigma exists to two levels, there's a kind of social level where it's the wider kind of society is prejudice prejudice against a certain group of people. But then there's also that kind of reinforces a private level kind of one where it's the individual's own opinions, their own worldview, and they're kind of, I think you call them rules to live bindings say that within themselves. And because you know, these people are part of society, when they may be aged, they'll become higher in this hegemonic hierarchy, or however you want to view kind of how society works, that then bleeds into the society itself and bleeds back into the sort of social level bit. So it's this kind of self fulfilling cycle that can be quite difficult to break out of.

Aidan: 8:39

So really, we society's expected men, boys, to act in a certain way, and fulfil certain stereotypes. So as we said, outdated, arguably in as Louis said, like, emotional intelligence is valued more, especially in certain professions. But how do you guys think that this actually leads to, let's say, lack of access to services, or more violence, or serious mental health outcomes? Because like, it's very well known that suicide is the biggest killer of men from 18 to 49 I wanna say, maybe 45. But how does this expectation lead to that because it seems like quite a big, quite a big jump.

Louis: 9:33

I think it's um, sort of the fear of vulnerability and the fear of opening up that can often prevent men from doing so because again, you have those sort of expectations of like, you don't want to appear weak. And whether that's societal or internal, I think it can be, it's very individual like, but in general, it will be a case of men often fear opening up and being open and honest about their emotions. As a result, it all gets bottled up inside. And as you said before, it's like, we tend to take a very individualistic approach to mental health, we might not reach out for the help that we need. We might believe that, you know, naively or not, even if it's, it could be self assured, or it could be naive. But we might believe that we can solve our own problems, and we don't need help from other people. But often, that is just not the case. I just think, you know, a man alone is like an island, you can deal with every problem that comes your way without help from others. And that's why people bottle it up. And it leads to, you know, more mental health difficulties. And so higher suicide rates in men.

Euan: 10:40

I think, I think leading on from that this is kind of you that a lot of the sort of interventionists, I guess, the intervention, not just with these therapies or these approaches to trying to tackle mental health problems, particularly anxiety and depression, it's almost like a last resort. And that tends to be the drug. So the first thing that medication, the first thing people look at, I think I was reading a paper the other day, there's looking and comparing blog posts by 45 men, 45 women, who are self identified as depressed. And it's saying that men tended to view the sort of responsibility they had for themselves as ending, going to your doctor and getting some pharmacological intervention, and kind of just leaving it there. Whereas I think it's fairly well established. Oh, it certainly makes more sense to try and seek other opportunities, other ways of trying to deal with these problems, particularly if the medication may not necessarily be dealing with the underlying issues, right, it's just kind of treating the condition. That makes sense, it's more maybe more of a symptomatic treatment than actually trying to, you know, help the person help them and improve his life increases outlook on life, and put himself into a better situation.

Louis: 11:49

I think men are often sort of resistant to taking that holistic approach to their mental health, where it is a case of you think that is just kind of some chemical imbalance, you go to your doctor, and you might, you might want drugs for it, because you think it's an easy fix. But like you said, there's been so much research into it, where it's not just that that helps, I think you have to attack, not attack, you have to seek out the underlying causes of things and help yourself to sort of take that wider approach. Because I think it is, it's a combination of chemicals, and also lifestyle, and the way you treat yourself and a lot of sort of self care and open and sort of honest reflection about how you process things is the weight is one of the ways to help yourself. I think we as men tend to be a bit reductionist about mental health, and just reduce it down to that simple sort of chemical imbalance, or just simple emotions, where it's like, you just say that you feel sad one day, and that's enough, and you don't, you don't always reflect like introspectively on why you feel sad, and what perhaps the root causes are, and how you can help yourself. I think that, again, just feeds into the whole narrative of just bottling things up because you don't know where to approach it from first.

Euan: 13:01

Yeah, for sure, I think the same study, there's looking at blog posts out there men tend to view and more, or tend to favour the sort of medicalization of these issues. So it's the kind of treatment of these issues is more of a kind of biochemical or medical problem, rather than a social or psychological kind of issue. And this kind of leads to things like, it can lead to it being quite, to people feeling quite hopeless in ways because, you know, it's like, oh, it's just my underlying biology, you know, there's nothing I can do about that, other than trying to take this pill. And also apparently has a lot of fun. Or at least according to this study, there was lots of people talking about the world at large and kind of viewing, like, is almost hopeless, as the world's, you know, destructive, and it's quite damaging. It does seem like that way, quite a bit, especially now. That there's almost this lack of hope, and this lack of capacity to try and improve prove things for yourself. Because it seems like it's not worth it. Because the you know, the external world is just as bad as what you feel the internal world is? Or maybe you know, vice versa, or more likely, probably vice versa. Is your projecting out your own internal world to the external

Aidan: 14:06

Yeah, I think there's two main things and also, with the world. way that we're viewing the external world is sort of the rise of social media and 24 hour news channels and always been on Lincoln to that, because like, you could sit here and argue that we're in a very bizarre situation or bits it politically whatever. But then again, we haven't been this tuned in. Like people had to wait a day for the latest news item back in, let's say, the 80s. Whereas now we will get notification our phones say, when the COVID death count goes up, or something like that. Does that breed this cycle of negativity?

Louis: 14:52

Yeah. Because the thing you said about media and sort of limiting our exposure to it, I think that's such an important point because like, as a Politics student as well, I think, you know, part of my degree is trying to stay up to date with all the goings on in the world. But I think there is definitely something to be said with limiting how much you expose yourself to that, because so much of news media is based on negativity just because, you know, a lot of negativity is very newsworthy, and we have those 24 hours of news sources that we look at. I think if you're exposing yourself to that all the time, it can really have an effect on your mental health. And sometimes you do just need time, away from the news and away from all the sort of big questions in the world that might make you worry, not just about yourself, but like everyone around you, and just society as a whole. And I think it is very important in today's social media age to limit your both exposure to the news and the engagement with social media, is often not only does it make you sad to just constantly be reflecting on the state of the world, but also I think it makes you compare yourself against other people on social media. And obviously, there's so many sort of reports and studies and everything that show how, like the negative effects that social media usage can have on our mental health. I think it is just a case of taking the initiative to have that self care and take some time away from the screen. So you're not looking or like reflecting on society, or reflecting on yourself and comparing yourself to other people.

Euan: 16:25

Yeah, I think it's particularly difficult because when you see other people on social media, you tend to see, you know, the example they want to show I like everything tends to be good, you know, you sort of seeing the more positive aspects of people that they're filtering through to these devices. And to these platforms, which is just isn't realistic of what people deal with, you know, there's not realistic of what a human being really is, we have these kind of benefits, we have these good parts, but we also have these flaws. And I think it's much more of a healthy and humanistic kind of view to look at these and accept them. For instance, I'm finding it very much better for myself to be not just open about the conditions I've dealt with depression, anxiety, and things like imposter syndrome in academia, I'm trying to be more open with these to the people around me to the people, you know, physically see, but then also on social media, like I'm finding that's really helping a lot, because it sort of takes a lot of the burden off in a way and it makes you feel less like you're living this kind of double life. And I think there's quite a lot of good stuff going on with a lot of male celebrities in the moment being much more open about stuff they face and stuff they've dealt with. I'm hoping that kind of a thing can lead the way to a much more kind of open society, particularly from you know, like the masculine aspects of it anyway.

Aidan: 17:41

Yeah, I just want to play once you've pulled into my next point is what, like, we've spoke about how this can be negative, but there obviously is a positive aspect of it. You've said like you can talk, you can talk and it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel as big saying someone in real life, I'm suffering with x, y Zed. Is there a point to be made that putting things out on social media? Or have it or having conversations virtually, is that easier for men to have than either no going down the pub or kickabout, etc? Because a lot of the campaign's focus on going outside and talking to your mates or etc, which I know isn't possible at the moment. But can we do this online instead? Is there a different? dynamic? I guess?

Louis: 18:33

Yeah, I think, um, there's the, the screen can be both a barrier, but it can also be something that makes you more likely to divulge things, I think it can often cut us off from people because we have that lens of social media. But when we're talking to people through a screen, we might not feel as judged if we're trying to be open and honest about how we feel. I think when it comes to issues of mental health, especially you can see in sort of, during the pandemic and everything, you've got a lot of online counselling services, you've got a lot of over the phone GP appointment and everything. And I think sometimes it can be a lot easier to talk to someone over the phone, just because there's not, although that, yeah, there's not that in person expectation or like feeling that you might be judged. And I just think it does become easier to be open and honest about yourself when you're talking to someone over the phone.

Euan: 19:33

Yeah, I think it's almost like I was I want to continue what you're talking about counselling specifically. I think there's less fear about you know, worrying about things like body language and stuff like that, which is in my experience tend to be stuff that I was really kind of thinking about I'm aware of whenever I was in counselling, you know, it's quite it becomes quite a kind of hyper aware state when you're talking about these things that are vulnerable because, well, it's a vulnerability, right, you're opening up and that's going to activate your sort of fight or flight response. So you know, I'd be very wary was doing with my hands where they notice go for a glass of water or something, I'd start thinking about what they think about that. But I've actually found so so so I did counselling with the University of Leeds, a student counselling service, which is absolutely great. And I'd record very much recommend going to help going to those guys, because it was very, it was very beneficial experience. But what I found was really, really beneficial for me going forward was some online counselling I did with another, um, counselling service. That was the kind of a zoom screen and I was able to kind of get a bit of space in between me and the counsellor that kind of gave me a bit more space and a bit more freedom to feel like it'd be a bit more open.

Louis: 20:36

Yeah. So yeah, going on from that as well. It's like when you're in person, I found something not, not even when I'm talking about my mental health, but just in general, with conversation, sometimes, if you're in person, you're trying to think about sort of what you look like you might be a bit self conscious, you might be trying to maintain eye contact. And it becomes it can become harder to really think about your words before you say them and think about them. But like over the phone, when you're talking especially about more sensitive issues. And you don't have someone in front of you that you have to you feel like you have to almost present an image with all of your gestures and your eye contact and everything, it becomes a lot easier to go into your head and really sort of reach in and figure out what you're trying to say and get those words out I think

Aidan: 21:21

Yeah, I'm, I'm going to add on to that because I, I've gone through counselling, I've obviously experienced the transition from impasse and counselling to zoom as a result of the pandemic, there's something there for at least me because I've met a new counsellor on zoom. And the it's such a different dynamic, because normally when I have first counselling appointment, I'm sure you guys agree you're always a little bit anxious or worried about saying the wrong thing. Or, again, you're having to portray this image of yourself. And on zoom, literally I can, I can look smart, but still be in a comfort zone for me. So I could have my cat next to me, keeping me calm when I'm talking about things which would normally upset or trigger me. So in terms of stigma, do you think this COVID pandemic is horrible has been has led some positives in terms of mental health care?

Euan: 22:20

That's a really good point. I like what you say about having a cat that's almost like you know, the comforts of home in your own safe space, when you're sort of opening up in this vulnerable way.

Aidan: 22:29

It's this, like I'm, and I'm speaking quite generally here, but quite a lot of therapy relies on you imagining your safe space. Yeah, or being a transport to this. But if you're physically there, control your environment, does that mean interactions deeper, all be it through a screen,

Louis: 22:50

the thing about controlling your environment being such an important aspects of it is is so true. I think maybe, you know, obviously the pandemic is all from everything. But having those avenues opened up and having more options when it comes to counselling. And hopefully, even when everything's sorted, and you know, we go back to some sense of normalcy, hopefully those avenues still exist. And we'll be able to have that personal choice aspect for it, where like, if you feel more comfortable over the phone, or over the internet, as opposed to being in person, then you have those options. I think when it comes to those sort of environmental cues, something that I do a lot of time, even in seminars, like if I'm making a point of something, I'll always have something, I need something to fiddle with in my hands. So like even though I'm sort of just holding a pencil, I'm just twiddling around, but yeah. So

Unknown: 23:42

yes.

Louis: 23:45

Yes, they doing those sort of environmental stimuli to sort of help with any anxiety and just keep yourself calm. I think it's really important to do that and doing it in your own home just makes it so much easier.

Aidan: 23:57

I suppose there is kind of a caveat to that, though, that if you do not feel safe and secure in your own home or environment, you're uni student and you're not. You haven't been as open with your housemates in terms of your mental health due to the stigmas out there. I'm I agree that at the moment is going to be a bit difficult to have to access services. But hopefully when we get sorted, if you have that option, now you'll be in person, you find the person back in the centre of care which I filled it, counselling, psychology, therapy, whatever, is kind of lost, if that makes sense.

Louis: 24:35

Yeah, absolutely. I think yeah, we should probably specify we I think, at least I am definitely talking from a bit of a place of privilege at the moment, because I enjoy where I live, I'm living with some good friends and everything like that. So I feel a lot more comfortable at home. But obviously, if you are in a place where you're not comfortable, then the enclosure and this sort of isolation of the pandemic would be markedly worse and it might be the exact opposite for you. You might find that If you're really not liking these sort of screen to screen contact things for mental health, and you'd prefer to be able to go back. So I think, yeah, it's important to recognise our own privilege when we're talking about stuff like this.

Aidan: 25:11

Yeah, of course, like, it seems to me like, I'm not as open with my family in terms of my mental health. But it said, I have to be aware that I am speaking from a position of privilege because not everyone's going to have that, especially if you're, I don't know from a low socio economic area with poor internet connection, or poor, and phone signal or anything along those lines. It once again, who's back to this need to find what works the independent individual person that you're seeing. So what will help what will help them overcome the stigma that they're experiencing? What will allow them to open up more what method of delivery is best for them? Because as Euan said before, when anyone go goes to the doctor, or any, any sort of medical professional in terms of treatment for mental health, you get pill shop to you. And I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. But we try to do a one size fits all approach. And that isn't how mental health works, it can work for physical health. But we're so individuals so different, that we need to consider every everyone's individual experiences when we talk about mental health, which is why stigma can be so devastating, because if someone's had a bad experience, save, from my experience, I want to disclose that I had anxiety to ex girlfriend of mine, who then decided to use that as a stick to beat me with when we have relationship issues. So if you've had a bad experience, how can you expect that person to be as open and honest with someone impersonal over the phone, or even the same gender,

Unknown: 27:00

when talking about mental health? That's a really difficult one. Like I've experienced similar things in which I was trying to quite recently within like the last year, and what's kind of caused me for quite a big problem or depression was I opened up to someone hours a day at a time. And you know, it was kind of what in the aspect of wanting kind of reciprocal support in the sense that that kind of demanded support from me beforehand. And then, when I did open upset, they basically just parred me off, said, You know, I was just kind of dealing with a moment and told me, like, sleep it off. And then when I sort of confronted them saying he has no, right, they called me emotionally entitled, which really then kind of ended things because of that, and not that much. I could say how that made kind of how I guess, if I go through, like how it kind of made me feel, with the hope that hopefully, this could, you know, we can reverse engineer in answer to it, if that makes sense. So sort of, like, you know, maybe feel like my problems was dealing with wasn't necessarily, you know, worth dealing with. And I was kind of overestimating overreacting to the sort of mental health and why I was dealing with. And because of that I didn't seek help and I didn't reopen up to anybody for months and months, which is absolutely terrible. And I'll come back, I'm doing a lot better now. And I have opened up, I'm doing this podcast, obviously, to try and get a bit more open about these things. But um,

Louis: 28:17

so yeah, I think our personal relationships are also a big part of what plays into stigma. Because if you have friends or significant others, or family that are supportive, and you can be open with them and everything, then that's great. But obviously, you know, that's not a luxury that everybody has. And often we don't know, until we disclose things, how people are going to react. And that definitely plays into the effects of stigma, because I think we're often sometimes especially if you're in like a new relationship or something like that, I think we're often afraid to be that open and show vulnerability early on, and be honest with how we're feeling, just because we don't know how people are going to react. And I think that's a big part of the societal stigma as well. Because obviously, we're sort of, we're brought up with these expectations from the media, and from sort of authority figures and everything like that, that you have these traditional roles to fit into, you're not supposed to be too emotional to open or anything. And you don't know how that's affected the other people in your life. And some people may not have sort of seen through the sort of fallacies of those traditional roles, and they may still be trying to deal with their own journey into that. And so I think it can also it can often be a risk that we take when we open up to other people. Because not only are we affected by stigma, but they are as well, and I think that can definitely affect their reaction to us opening up to them.

Aidan: 29:42

It shows the importance of the first interaction for someone or a man who's coming out with mental health problem, because, say, for example, I didn't know Louie had a mental health problem. He came to me and said, Aiden, I'm ready. You're struggling, and I'm really anxious, I can't do my uni work, etc. If I turned around and was bitten, did the stereotypical response, which was like, Oh, it's all in your head, sleep it off, man up, yada, yada, yada. Louis isn't then going to want to talk to anyone else about this. Because I've palmed him off. And he doesn't feel validated.

Euan: 30:26

Yeah, I think half the battle is like, there's a sort of, I guess you'll see some external symptoms of it, but half about mental health and I, I'd wager maybe it's worth for the men, but I don't I'm not too sure if that's really true, that it's just kind of justification and feeling like, you know, is this thing valid as a viable? Am I just overreacting to this? Yeah, I had that going on for so long in my head for a while just sort of, I feel like I'm overreacting to it. Like, my emotions are too much for this, like, basically, what's wrong with me? You know, I feel like I'm going to be insane, in a way.

Aidan: 30:57

Yeah, that's a really interesting point you and putting this back to stigma is what can we do about it? I mean, we've said a lot about the importance of the first interaction and stigma has effect on everyone else. But what have people been doing? And how can we lead to this acceptance of meant our own mental health and mental health society All in all,

Louis: 31:25

you um, you see, those sort of these new campaigns springing up like men sheds, where you get together groups of men who like, you know, you're traditionally not used opening up and being vulnerable, especially with other men sometimes, and you get them doing activities that they enjoy, you get them talking and to form the buttons, and you give them that safe, comfortable spaces open up. And I think that is a big part of reducing the stigma is by just allowing men to talk in a naturalised setting that they enjoy, and making sure that they're comfortable enough to open up with other people. And I think it's like, you've got sort of three areas that you can help with stigma, you've got the society wide thing, and that could be limiting your exposure to social media. And then you've got your interpersonal relationships. And that could be just telling open, honest conversations with people and setting boundaries as well. I think setting boundaries is a very important thing. I think it's very important within yourself to be able to have the mechanisms in which to validate your own emotions and know that you're not overreacting to things and you're not that you are worthy of, you know, taking the time to care for yourself and everything like that.

Euan: 32:38

Yeah, I think what you're saying about kind of having that, I guess, gaining that insight into understanding yourself, that's something that I've been very keen on and really kind of benefited from over the past few months and weeks, I guess maybe one possible quote unquote benefit of lockdown, but yeah, it's a horrible time. And it was, they did really give me that chance. And that perspective to it was mainly through counselling, which I'm kind of helped spur on but sort of, to be able to look at myself and my reactions to things and kind of understand myself a little bit better and because of that, you know, feel a bit more firstly more confident, myself, less kind of blame full of myself for you know, why I do certain things or opportunity, why I react in certain ways to certain things and kind of made me more resilient and robust in terms of feeling like and face up to future things that might happen and you know, the life might throw my way.

Louis: 33:28

Yeah, I think I'm a sort of similar thing happened to me throughout lockdown as well. Like, when I sort of came home from uni, and about March, I think I was home for five or six months, maybe basically March till September. And it was similar cases, like I was, suddenly I'd gone from this very busy university environment when I started myself into a lot of things and just staying busy all the time, to this home environment where for the first time I, in years, I didn't have anything to do, like I didn't have a job, I didn't have any work to do. And it was just being in that environment and having a lot of time to myself. I think in some ways it it helped and in other ways it wasn't great.

Euan: 34:10

Yeah, no entirely I say it's there's a lot of I make it sound like you know, I've been on some magical journey of self it's much rougher than that had been some very much some lows and some very bad times. But yeah, I think it's quite difficult because sometimes these things is self development is really quite a painful process right?

Louis: 34:27

So I think you know exactly what you said it's a lot of ups and downs when it comes to figuring that out about yourself and I I did a lot of mindfulness meditation and stuff after a while where I was like, Well, I'm spending all this time alone. I'm so you get to know myself

Euan: 34:43

to try to Sam Harris's meditation app. I found that really good.

Louis: 34:47

Yeah, I think I used calm I just use that like, intro

Aidan: 34:50

I mean, it shows that is, as you said, it isn't something thing. to be idolised because it is quite hard to go instantly into this. state of complete silence after being so busy for so long. And obviously the nature of the pandemic, we've It was pretty much we flew everyone in the deep end, because whilst we knew, in some ways that this was a serious thing, the lockdown kind of hit everyone a bit, surprised everyone, I guess. And that is where it had affected mental health, I guess. But as you said, it sounds like you both have had quite positive reactions to this, which, which is a good thing. Yeah, I

Euan: 35:35

think I think what's particularly damaging about it, I think, maybe knows is a bit biassed, as someone who's coming from more scientific background where, you know, I like to have control over the things I do. And I tend to try and, you know, want to understand things from a more rationalistic mindset, you know, just the complete uncertainty and the lack of control that we've all felt over the past few months has, I think, been very difficult for me to cope with personally or am I just very difficult for a lot of people to cope with, not just I'm lucky enough to have been able to go back to my mother's house and not have been had to do to worry about finance my financial situation. But you know, people getting furloughed people losing their jobs, it must be so difficult to be in that kind of situation.

Louis: 36:17

Yeah, absolutely. I think again, it's a case of acknowledging our own privileges, I guess, because yeah, I went home to, to live with my mom. And that's great. I have a really healthy home life and everything. So like I had something good to go back to, and I wasn't sort of financially insecure from uni or anything. So I had a good situation to go back to. But I think despite like anyone in any sort of socio economic situation, although it is definitely worse, if you have less to go back to I think just being alone all that time does definitely have an effect. And I think it you also tend to fall back into sort of those same older cycles of not necessarily self destruction, but just like a lack of self care, because I know that Yeah. The last time I was probably I had this much time alone with must be when I was like 14 or 15. And what did I do when I was 14? Or 15? I just played video games all day, I just fell back into that cycle. Yeah, so yeah, I just sort of fell back into old habits. And I ended up playing video games a lot of the time, and for a good couple of months, I was neglecting a lot of self care. And it took me a while, sort of realised No, I'm, I'm not 14 or 15. I mean, I should be taking care of myself better than this.

Euan: 37:31

I think I think it was somewhat compounded by the kind of those, I think, you know, I think it was a very trying to be a very positive thing. And it was trying to be very beneficial in a kind of a big movement being like, you've got all this time to yourself, okay, you know, you can work on these things, you can, you know, find new hobbies, and, you know, bake sourdough bread and these kinds of things. But I think it was very easy to feel quite guilty about that, like you say, like, I remember the first two months a lockdown. And I actually had time off, I'd sort of time off beforehand anyway, because I was already having issues beforehand. I just did nothing, I did absolutely nothing. And it was really easy to feel guilty to see, you know, people out here, people, different people compared to me, you know, again, this is not the most healthy mindset to start comparing yourself to other people. But you know, it felt like, and again, I guess this feeds into social media as well doesn't it about kind of how that influences us. But I'm sort of feeling like, you know, there's Everyone seems like they're off, you know, not only managing, but then you know, doing all these wonderful things to look into themselves. Whereas I felt very badly at the starte, very much more like, you know, I'm just kind of lying in bed. But then I guess, I guess, maybe maybe something that I could do it learning from, and then hopefully, it's maybe a bit more of a lesson to other people, I have felt like me as I am now in this position where I do feel like I have actually changed and I have built upon myself, without even really feeling like I was doing any of that stuff. If that makes sense. I think it's a little more subtle than just sort of, you know, doing going out and doing all these things, I think I was able to get through a kind of mindset where, again, I come from quite as you know, scientific background and tend to be quite rational and how I approach things. But I think relating to things like mindfulness and meditation that I learned, and it's through a bit of reading through a bit kind of self reflection, learn to kind of be more aware of the importance of this aspect of humanity. Like, I don't necessarily want to say spirituality, not in the sense of, I guess, a cover more religious aspect of it. But an understanding of that sort of irrational nature of human beings, right, and being able to kind of acceptance of the lack of certainty in life sometimes, sometimes, there's not really a logical explanation for certain events. Yeah, I

Louis: 39:37

think that's what, that's a lot of what mindfulness or did for me, it was a case of embracing that. You know, sometimes it is a case of you can't control the world, you can't control the situations that you're necessarily in. So you do have to have that sort of, I think they call it equanimity. It's like you have that even handed and balanced approach to everything going on and I think that definitely helped me Because sort of halfway through the lockdown where I decided that I would, you know, do better at trying to sort of take care of myself a bit more, it was a case of I would sort of wake up. And I'd be like, well, what, what's going to make me happy today. And that was my main concern, because I did Luckily, I mean, again, acknowledging my privilege, I didn't have to worry too much about money over the summer, because I had some like student finance leftover. I'd sort of been furloughed from a part time job that I'd been having. So like, I had that extra money. So I didn't have to worry too much about things. And so as a result, I was able to wake up and just like, well, what's gonna wake me up today, what's going to make me feel a bit better about the whole situation that's going on around me. And I think that definitely helped. It was a case of just putting myself first for a lot of the time and just figuring out what I wanted to do, and I, and I think, as a result of that, I came out of lockdown, feeling better than I did going in because I was less unsure about the world, I felt a lot more calm. And I had that sort of the muscle of equanimity that they call it on the Calm App.

Euan: 41:07

I like a lot of love some of the terminology, I think it's almost, it's such a difficult thing to do. And as I say, it's quite subtle, like, it's something I've only really kind of maybe become more self aware that it's a perspective I have is, there's almost a release or a kind of relaxation, when you kind of accept that there are certain things that you can't control, right? It's kind of a lack of that you sort of lose, what's the word and thank you, if you lose kind of as well, less pressure, right? You feel a lot less pressure to make everything go right and make everything perfect, because like a weight off your shoulders. Exactly. That's exactly,

Aidan: 41:40

it. That's coming back to what you said you in light. We live in a society that places a lot of value on being productive. Like you can see these work patterns being idolised where people get up at five o'clock in the morning, use every single hour of their day. And therefore, when we having a bad day, a bad time to discard, this kind of adds a stigma because you don't want to admit that you're not doing as well as other people. Yeah, I guess this acceptance of yourself and your state is what was really helpful for you and could be really helpful going forward, at least for men. Because if we encourage this, it kind of takes them out of this whole, whole worldview, and bring them back into Okay, what is going on with me? What can I control? What can I do, which I feel is sorely missing in terms of the way that we as men act in society

Louis: 42:43

Yeah, you can bring it back to that stigma of the traditional masculine roles, that pervasive throughout the whole society, because everybody has that sort of influence of that corporatist productive society where like, you have to be sort of earning money or working on yourself and everything like that. But it is a case of, you should just take time to care for yourself first and foremost, like, even if you are being productive, I think, if you're being productive, but you're not taking care of your needs, then you're not doing yourself a service, that you're just sort of serving this serving, sort of corporatist culture instead of yourself. And I think you need to be able to take that time to reflect on how you're feeling on how you're doing and sort of figure out how to make you feel happier.

Euan: 43:33

I completely agree that I think the sort of over productivity kind of hype and that kind of attitude towards days, not only is it you know, it's not a particularly enjoyable, I don't think it's a good way for people to operate. But I think even by what it's trying to do, right, it's trying to, you know, you're trying to be as successful and as functional as you can. I don't, I don't think it really ends up working out because you know, you'll be productive for a long time. And I definitely had sunk into this for tonnes of my life, you know, I'd work a lot. At any event, you get like burned out a dentist, say, Oh, you can't do a load of work for you, you know, you physically unable to think or do a load of work for quite a while as well. So I think I think it tries to, you know, put itself as being like, you know, you can hack your productivity, you can make yourself basically being some kind of superhuman, but you are human, you need to kind of have that space in need to, as you say, focus on these underlying kind of, on your underlying kind of feelings and emotions.

Louis: 44:27

No, I think everything that you said was really relevant that I think, especially the thing when it comes to burnout, I think especially when I was in my first year at uni, that was kind of how I approached everything because it was almost like it was a tactic leftover from school because I just kind of, I would just neglect alot of work until the very end and then just do everything all in one day and burn out. It just work in spots like that. But I think after the time I've had at home to reflect and sort of learn about myself a bit more. I've come into second year of uni Knowing that I have to put myself first a lot of the time. And now, instead of leaving everything to the last minute and just burning out and trying to get it all done, I work like maximum about three or four hours a day, but I just do it consistently. And I know that I will always have that time in the evening, that's for myself to do what I want. I think it's great to have that balance in life. And I think it's really helpful my mental health in second year, I don't feel I don't feel guilty for leaving things because I'm still doing work every day. But I also don't feel overworked because I'm not leaving everything to the last minute and then just doing it for like 12 hours every day.

Euan: 45:36

Sounds very healthy, something that really surprised

Louis: 45:36

Wow, yeah, geez, that sounds really scary. I can't, I me when I really started feeling burned out. And I think this was more of my fourth year, going into my PhD for the past couple can't say I've experienced that I did have the sort of twitch years, is some of the physical symptoms, I find I got a really bad kind of twitching eye, for specific my right eye, which I know is one that I need to wear glasses for. So it's kind of understandable why, you know, it would start flaring up a bit. So that obviously, you know, it was a bit of an impact to my work because I was having difficulty seeing difficulty seeing. But also, you know, made me feel quite self conscious. Because you know, I've got this twitching, I probably look like I'm kind of dealing with some stuff. And secondly, I've had visual migraines, if you ever had those, which were quite one of the first one is really alarming. Like kind of, I couldn't see it just got worse and worse and worse. And as expanded. I just couldn't see I had to like lie in my bed And then I was like, I can' see my hand in f thing that we're talking about. I haven't had one of those before.

Euan: 46:35

It's sort of like, imagine you're staring at like fractals or something in your vision, sort of like a more like crystals and slowly growing throughout your field of vision and like, you close your eyes and they're still there, you look at the other end, they're still there. And it kind of the only thing you can really do is just sort of light down and, you know, close your eyes and try and sleep or sort of I think looking at distance is meant to help as well. But yeah, ladies, it's an that's obviously, you know, quite a stark one, some stocks and things that affect the eyes. But then, you know, there's all kinds of physical things like tightness of heaviness can have sore much muscles, all these kind of physical impacts of it, that will inevitably affect your productivity. Remember around to the end.

Louis: 47:16

And I think something I found on that on those lines as well. It's like, when I was working in that sort of burnout stage last year, and not taking breaks and everything. I think I did, yeah, I did have this sort of physical symptoms, like the twitchy eye and just the muscle soreness. Like every day, I'd wake up and I feel like I hadn't gone to sleep or anything. And but this year, it's like I'm doing you know, it's it's all stuff that I'm sure everyone's heard before, but like just taking those five minute breaks to go and make a cup of tea and everything like that. Like it makes such a difference, isn't it? It's um, yeah, cuz, for example, like, I've had a busy couple of weeks, the past two weeks, because you know, it's like midterms sort of time. And I came to uni with like a full box of about 200 tea bags, and I'd only have 20 or 30. Like since September, the past week, I've nearly emptied the whole box. Every 20 minutes, I go down for a cup of tea just so I take that break. And I'm not looking at screen the whole time. I think it's definitely really helped my Well, it's helped my productivity, but in a healthy way. Like I'm not overworking myself anymore.

Euan: 48:24

Yeah, like going to the park and going on the swing for a bit, obviously, was difficult when they're closed. But

Aidan: 48:32

I mean, my response to that is Louis, you're doing nothing to help the British stereotype. So I feel we've we've had a really good conversation here and covered a lot of bases. But I just want to end with a question relating back to the original topic of stigma. Obviously, we know this is prevalent for men, we know that this can have devastating effects, as we've seen by suicide rates, rates of mental health issues rate of admissions. But what would be one thing that you guys would recommend to help reduce this societal stigma or internal stigma for men that are potentially listening?

Louis: 49:12

I think something that I do quite a lot is to give people that opportunity to open up and be vulnerable, I do like to check in and my friends quite a lot. And I think it's very much a reciprocal thing. Like you don't want to be the only one sort of checking in if people aren't caring about you. But like, if you've got good friends, you will enjoy making sure that they're okay and they'll enjoy making sure you're okay. And so quite often I like to you know, just check up on my friends and everything. And that allows the open conversation to flow quite a lot more naturally. And I think that helps break down that stigma about talking about your feelings, because you're just you're giving them that safe environment to talk in and then you get it in return because often like I said, like if they're good friends, you'll both be talking about things and you'll both have that healthy environment to share.

Euan: 50:00

Being proactive in that way. And kind of like, if you can either if you can see someone who's looking like they might be struggling and being quite open with them and being quite willing to kind of ask them first, but even then maybe not with someone who isn't, who doesn't look like they're struggling, you know, just a friend, you haven't talked to him quite a while, and this is something I've been trying to quiet the edges check in with people asking them how they are, you know, it's, it's, it's, this is great if they feel like they can open up any problems they have. But then it's also you know, like, sometimes you can just talk about things, anything, you know, anything will be a friend for someone else. And that is beneficial too, you know, remind them that there's, they're not alone in the world and reminding that someone else there. And I think I guess that kind of, in some way it goes into what's the second point is kind of, I think, maybe lead by example, is a bit of a bit of a strong word, I don't seem so much as you know, like, the the one who like kind of I got

Aidan: 50:54

like, That must be the change, you want to see exactly

Euan: 50:57

be the to be the change, you want to see, like kind of try and show, you know, what it what it's like, what it's how it's not so bad to be open about these things, you know, and it's no one's is not going to reflect badly on you. I think society is going a very good way with this. As soon as the saying last celebrities, a lot of high profile men being more and much more open about the things they're doing with saying like, I'm much more open about these things on social media, and you're talking with people, and I think it's like, I feel a lot better for it. And I feel far better for it. And I hope, you know, it gives the perspective of other people to feel they could be more open with it as well. But then I think it's that's one aspect. But then I think also, as I say, like kind of being quite productive with helping other people who might be suffering, you don't really have the confidence to open up. Because it can be quite difficult when you sort of put the pressure on someone else, you know, you make it the individuals responsibility. Because when society and themselves are telling them No, it's not okay to open up about that. Yeah, it can be quite difficult.

Louis: 51:57

I think, if I could co OPT your point over there, I know you said you know, Be the change you want to see, but also be the friend that you want to have. And yes,

Aidan: 52:07

exactly,

Louis: 52:07

yeah. Not just to other people, but to yourself, be there for yourself in order to keep that sort of good mental health. And you can help others at the same time. But you don't want to help others at the expense of your own sort of mental health. I think it's very much a two way street like you help others. And if you've got those good friendships, they'll help you too. But you always need to be able to take care of yourself. And whether that's just with a small thing, like a cup of tea, or whether that's with a big thing like daily exercise, or just doing something that makes you happy every day. I think that's very important to do.

Euan: 52:39

Yeah, I think that's important thing to say, because I think I've only really been able to be this open about things because I did start paying attention to myself and more caring for myself in that way. So I say like, yeah, don't focus on yourself and improving yourself and then that will in itself help you then to go on and help others.

Aidan: 52:57

Exactly. If you enjoy what we do. Please check us out on social media in description box, and we'll see you next time. Thanks.