Social Class and University

In this episode George S talks to Robert Brown about Robert's experience of coming from a working class, low income background and how it has affected his time at university.  Though the number of students attending university has increased in recent years, the disparity in representation between students from low income and high income remains the same. We talk about what effects that can have on students from those under-represented backgrounds.

A few  books on relevant to this topic in the episode:

Chavs: The Demonisation of the Working Class - by journalist Owen Jones

https://uk.bookshop.org/books/chavs-the-demonization-of-the-working-class/9781839760921

This book explores the way the working class in the UK has been systematically marginalised and the negative attitudes that have been fostered about them by politicians and the media.

Limbo: Blue Collar Roots, White Collar Dreams - by journalist Alfred Lubrano

https://uk.bookshop.org/books/limbo-blue-collar-roots-white-collar-dreams/9780471714392

This is a book about the emotional challenges and internal conflicts  people from working class backgrounds (in this case, in the US) face when attempting to get into middle class professions

Normal People - by novelist Sally Rooney

https://uk.bookshop.org/books/normal-people/9780571334650

A novel about the troubled relationship between two school friends, one from a working class background and the other from a much wealthier background (also turned into a hit TV drama!)

Though not mentioned here, George would highly recommend the novels of David Nicholls - a novelist from a working class background and writer of One Day, Us and (most notebe from a class perspective) Starter For Ten and Sweet Sorrow:

https://uk.bookshop.org/books?keywords=David+nicholls

As well as Christopher Eccalston's autobiography I Love the Bones of You: My Father and the Making of Me:

https://uk.bookshop.org/books/i-love-the-bones-of-you-my-father-and-the-making-of-me/9781471176340

And Social Class in the 21st Century - by sociologist Mike Savage:

https://uk.bookshop.org/books/social-class-in-the-21st-century/9780241004227

Though not mentioned in the episode, this explains the recent division of the UK into seven classes, the concepts of social, economic and cultural capital discussed here, and how there is an increasingly large disparity between the elite at the top and the procariat at the bottom of the social hierarchy. 

If you would like support with your mental health, you can visit Students Against Depression:

https://www.studentsagainstdepression.org/ 

Transcript

George S: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the changing mentality podcast. This is George. And this is a podcast devoted to exploring issues around masculinity, mental health, and the well being of male students at university. It's created by a group of male students from across the UK and supported by the charity, Student Minds and Comic Relief. In this episode, I talked to Robert Brown, who is a PhD in philosophy at St. Andrews, about the effect that socio class has on one's experience for university. In particular, we talk about the impact that has on students from low income and or working class backgrounds. As Robert explains, all those two certainly overlap in many ways they are subtly distinct. If you're from one of these backgrounds, and you feel like it's presenting certain challenges for you or being University, I'd recommend you look to see if your student union has a working class officer. While this is not something that every university in the UK has. Many student unions have them now, Robert and I also discuss how being from one of these backgrounds can have a negative impact on your mental health. If you are struggling with depression or anxiety, I'd recommend you check out the students against depression website. While it does focus on depression. There's also resources for insomnia, anxiety, and other issues you might be experiencing related to negative mental health. So with that said, I hope you enjoyed the episode. I know I really enjoyed getting Roberts perspective, especially as he's someone who both is from a low income and working class background. And thank you for listening. Hey George, thanks for having me on. Oh, no worries. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, so we're going to talk about the experience of students from working class backgrounds at university. So maybe a good place to start is just tell us a little bit about your own background. You're an experienced University, and how you became interested in these kind of topics around social class.

Robert: 2:31

Yes, so I'm currently a first year PhD student in philosophy at the universities and androids. I work primarily in philosophy of mind and consciousness. So I grew up in Darlington in the northeast of England. And that's where I went to school and sixth farm and came from a low income background. My parents met when they were working in a factory, my dad on the forklift. And then when I got that loader, my mom started working part time cleaning for the NHS. When we were arranging the episode, one thing you mentioned, was a kind of reluctance to talk publicly about this kind of topic. Yeah, yeah. The imposter syndrome for real. Yeah, yeah, I think I think imposter syndrome is something in academia, it's talked a lot about especially, I guess you would say privately, you know, the number of PhD students and academics I know that will say that they, you know, they, they definitely have imposter syndrome. Obviously, they thought things were getting better. But yeah, so you contacted me after I ran a St. Andrews my analogy and philosophy workshop with another PhD students. And yeah, I was, I was hesitant to, I mean, I was hesitant to do that, that workshop, because I didn't want to be, you know, a fox person. You know, and, and, to be clear, while I am from I'm his only grandson, and they got very lucky in the housing market back in the day, you know, in the Ph. D. loan you know, had some shortfall So, um, you know, like, he's, he helped me eat, basically. So, you know, I don't ever because of that, I don't really ever want to be a spokesperson because there's, there's people that have that struggle with and do struggle a lot more than I do. Like, for example, I've never had to work during my studies. Until like, now, but like, I don't actually have to heavily rely on me on the income that I get from tutoring. And when my parents were struggling, and most of that with when I was very young. And so while I was remeber what it was like, only being a child, you never really have the full story. You know, and even when you're like 12, you're still you still don't really have the entire story. But I do know that my drive to university has always been based on a desire not to struggle like my parents did. And they're more qualified to speak and I am saying that the very issue with it, and it's something that needs to be talked about more. So I thought, well, you know, if I'm, if I have a platform to do it, then I probably should. Yeah. Yeah, I think that feeling of imposter syndrome can be quite common, and especially the feeling of not wanting to be a spokesman. And I think we can, one thing that can be helped say is like,

George S: 5:55

you know, inevitably, you're going to be talking from your own experience. And that's not going to be everyone's experience. And there are going to be people who may, I think hearing just individuals stories, even if you don't see them as representative, they can still tell you about something, it's still someone's experience. There's actually a quote, I wanted to read that came up, I read Owen Jones's book, chavs the demonization of the working class, he had this quote where he says, what could be described as the working class has never been homogenous, encourage people for whom life people for whom life is okay, it could be so much better, who face rising insecurity and fears about this, I wanted to read that quote, just as a way of capturing the fact that when we talk about, say, being from a working class background, and we'll come more into like, what we mean by class and that kind of thing. When we talk about these things, we are talking about a wide sector of people. And but so, and at the same time, there will be patterns, or there will be things that are common that are also important to emphasise. So I feel like, we're just good to say that

Robert: 6:58

upfront. Hmm, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Classes are really interesting. So yeah, yeah. I get that.

George S: 7:11

Yeah. I think the other thing I would add, as well as I think, kind of from many different angles into like, I'm having this conversation with someone from much more of a middle class background who hasn't faced financial struggles at any point. And there's imposter syndrome with that, because it's like, oh, well, I don't want to speak for people when it's not my experience. And I don't want to get it wrong as a result of not being from the background that is being talked about. But then there's also thing of what I don't want to just not talk about an issue that I think is important, because then I'm playing into this thing of middle class people getting uncomfortable about class and just pretending it doesn't exist. And we're all middle class now. And it says, can be these things can be a bit of a double bind, but I feel like it's in a way it's keep it as kind of informed as possible, given the fact that we're all you know, no, no one knows everything. Yeah,

Robert: 8:01

yeah, that's I think often the figures speak for themselves as well, you know, I guess.

George S: 8:06

So I guess yeah. One play start is, when you think about class, what kind of things do you think constitutes that?

Robert: 8:15

I mean, it's complicated. It's a difficult question. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Really? Yeah. I think I think it needs to be removed from the idea of, of money. And I think you, you definitely need to make a distinction between like working class and in low income. Because to be working class seems far more like a cultural definition. You know, based on accent region, upbringing. Low income is a financial definition. And, and obviously, the thing very frequently go hand in hand. And yeah, you know, but I think it's, it's important to remember, at least for me, that if anything was going to stop me from going to university to do my undergraduate degree. And the same can be said for post grad, but I guess it can come out there. But like the the English loan system, at least how it was when I was at York, so like, for my experiences at University of York English on system with fairly generous for people from a low income background. I didn't have any family money at undergrad. I didn't struggle at all. I existed fairly comfortably. The first time that I did, nevertheless, there's still things about university that that you don't know. When you're from a background where you are the

George S: 9:57

Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. I mean, So one distinction that might be good to introduce here is this, these distinctions we make between different kinds of capital. So people talk in the sort of sociology of this. economic capital is like, your financial assets. That's how much money you have in the bank. Plus, if you have a business, if you have property, just all the various ways that people can accumulate wealth for themselves and their families. And then social capital is who you know, whether you have friends in high places, I think about it. So no, one way to tell how much social capital you have is to ask yourself, Well, if the music industry or any of these really competitive or academia for any of these really competitive industries, if I said that to my parents, would they look at me blankly? Or would they say, Oh, well, of course, you can talk to our friends there and our friend, yeah, like, we know, this academic. And we know, so and so's a journalist. And, you know, if they have a list of contacts, that means you're probably someone who else, then finally, cultural capital is good, like what you know, a kind of cultural activity, I want to think about, it's like the kind of references you're likely to get when people are talking so called high minded things like literature and philosophy, you probably can't as well, and art and that kind of thing. And I suppose just as a more general background, I don't think we're going to go into this here. But sociologists have now argued that there are a lot of different categories. And I think for the purpose of this conversation, we'll just talk in terms of capital rather than but I just wanted to flag that as a way of, there are a variety of different classes. And the way is that they diverged and intersector to do with possession. So with all of that said, I thought the best way to talk about class, especially as regards a race university would be how we see these different kinds of capital, and especially being locked. So you've talked about how money isn't necessarily often not the problem when it comes to coming to university, at least at undergrad, because of the student loan system. In terms of cultural capital, what difference is,

Robert: 12:04

I think, as I love to what you're call intrinsic knowledge associated with, with universities, so something that my attention was drawn to fairly recently with the term office hour. Now, I realise I've been seeped in academia for a while now. So, it never really occurred to me that I was talking to someone fairly recently. I'm now an academic. And they said that they were the first in their family to go to university and when they heard office hour, they thought that that was a time when academics wouldn't be available. They're in their office, they're working in there.

George S: 12:57

Yeah.

Robert: 12:58

And it's so obvious, right? Like, if someone was, you know, there's a different like, in, in academia, you know, the general expect, if you need help you ask us, I'm a tutor right now. And I do try to reach out to my students and remind them if they need help, I should just ask, but, you know, for for some, they might not relate for now, the general expectation on the back from academics, at least that, that, you know, if you're not hearing anything from your students, and that and you know, you can't blame academics, if academics are overworked and underpaid. I'm not counting myself on that. I know, postgraduate students are generally overworked and underfed. You know, you can't necessarily blame the academics. It's just the culture, I guess it The problem is that the the culture of academia isn't something that's gonna penetrate into a sphere of someone that's, you know, I mean, I was fortunate, the mantra that that we grew up with, or that 'shy bairns get nowt'. Yes. I'm fairly, I'm fairly willing to speak up. But obviously, not everyone's going to grow up. There's lots of little things like that. individually, aren't huge. And when you don't have someone that's been through the system before, to tell you, you know, to tell you about certain things to warn you about certain things, or even just saying things like form filling that goes on at university. People might wonder, you know, somebody found after filling this, this meeting that I'm not going to get my place are always there's something wrong with my application. No, no, you know, um words, I've never heard the word matriculation before until I did it at university. You know, it's just lots of lots you know, really only enter into enter into a conversation once you once you're from academic perspective, and if you don't have anyone telling you, you know, oh, yeah, this is usual, this is fine are warning before, then there is going to be a fence a sense of alienation. Yeah,

George S: 15:13

I think there's like, maybe two components there as well, because there's the not knowing that you're going to a large extent you're going to be left to your own devices at university, there's an understanding that if you need help, you can see here and it's there that, you know, it's understood by this sort of academic environment itself. And it's probably better understood by people from middle class backgrounds. But if you don't, as you're saying, if you don't have that, if you've not been, if no one in your family has been to university, you may just assume that if you're struggling, it really is down to you to just get on with it. And that, and I can easily see how that would contribute to this feeling of like, well, I shouldn't be here because look, I'm struggling, because no one said, you know, no one's no one's sort of gone out of their ways to try and help me. But then I can also imagine there's an element of, you know, one thing that came up when I was researching this is a lot of fear that students from working class backgrounds have it being on this imposter syndrome of like being unmasked as someone who doesn't belong there. which then makes them reluctant to ask for help, because they have this fear of betraying the fact that like, Oh, well, if I'm struggling, that must be another sign that this isn't for me, and I shouldn't be here, rather than and then, of course, you know, like, so many, lots of students, regardless of their background can struggle. But if you seek help, then you can get confirmation, like, Oh, that's fine, that's normal, don't worry about it. But if you don't,

Robert: 16:38

yeah, and even if even if you are the sort of person that can, that can see can take time, you know, so for example, and when I say time, I mean, you know, if if you're, if you're very anxious about something, and you know, let's say you, let's say you, you email Student Services about it, it could be that if you have a family member, that's, that's been to university, or like our friends, been to University, and you could just text them or call them, and they could give you the answer much quicker. And so that could be periods of like, you know, 24 hours of feeling very anxious about something waiting for students services to respond, or 48 hours 72 whatever. And where, if you have the insider knowledge already, if you you know, if you have access to that intrinsic knowledge from another staff, you might be able to get an answer quicker. And obviously, these are very, you know, very hypothetical examples that are quite abstract. But, you know, that they're obviously happening a lot. Yeah. Yeah, I think I know, I know, I say quite a bit that, that winning isn't necessarily everything. But I would like to draw attention to, to just the amount of money that Scottish students get for maintenance, that's how much you get to live off, is lower. And the last time I checked, there, obviously your your parents might not have any savings to draw upon, you know, you might not have any savings to draw upon. I mean, my, I saw a one of these anonymous student forums, they're on they're on Facebook student, that he was a student had posted this seeming fairly anxious, all of their friends, were buying a house together for, you know, very clearly second year, undergraduate first year undergraduate students about to buy a house together for next year. And they were saying, you know, it's this Is this normal, if I can think that I should be doing Oh, my God, and God, and they obviously they were posting in the comments. And St Andrews have an image of, you know, being, I think, very expensive, and being somewhere for only the elites. And I have some, some projects in mind that to do to try and help deal with that image. While financial barriers aren't always a problem. There are an I guess, it's come to the intrinsic knowledge as well. There's other costs of university that that you might not know to factor in, you know, when you're budgeting for a year, you might not know to factor in like, you know, York societies cost money when I was there to to become them. Five pounds or so. But let's go cost, and you know, that you might not know exactly, you might not know about any cost of textbooks. And this is all a part of this intrinsic knowledge, so even if you know you, you would have purchased various things. And you just might not have to budget for it until you get there. Yeah. And you wouldn't know that and that you may well know these sorts of things, if if you weren't the first in your family to go to university.

George S: 20:20

Again, it's the issue of knowledge and money, it kind of compounded. Because if you come from a family where people I mean, you might come from a low income background, but you're probably less likely to. So on the one hand, you probably will know these things. But at the same time, if you don't know them, you're in a, you're budgeting is not going to be need to be nearly as stringent, if you're coming from a much wealthier background as the budgetting of someone who is from a low income background. So there's an element of, you know, you're either gonna know it, or if you don't know it, you'll be fine. Like, you're if you need a bit of extra money, if you've got a family that can provide it that if you don't have the money to spend on, you then often have to sacrifice time in the place

Robert: 21:02

that every university that you've come across is going to have some sort of thing like this, where and you know, now just universities, you know, let's just expand it completely everything in life. Yeah, you know, basically trade your time for money. Yeah, yeah, if you can afford to just, you know, buy the very first train ticket, then that just takes you less time than having to sit down for an hour or two. And, you know, scroll through and do very things in order to buy cheaper train tickets. Same goes for things like electricity, or any sort of bill. And any anything, where it's just where it's quicker to buy the more expensive thing. And means that if you want it cheaper, then, okay, you're not spending, you know, spending money, but then you're spending time. Yeah, and that time, you could be used to do something else, you know, not necessarily working. But you know, it could be just relaxing,everyone needs downtime. And you know, and if you've, if you've worked out there, and then you'll come home. And now, you know, all you want to do is just like sit and chill for an hour before you go to bed. But actually, you know, in this hour, what you've got to deal with is gone online and start, you know, hunting for cheaper, whatever. And then again, after another trade off, that that low income people are having to make.

George S: 22:31

Yeah. And it's also like, the time is that the way that time is being spent is both tedious and stressful, it's not a creative thing to do. It's not a particularly interesting thing to have to do. It's just a necessity. It's one more necessity. And it's, yeah, if you said it's time you could be spending, taking care of yourself, looking after your own well being doing things, one problem,

Robert: 22:56

maybe isn't touched on enough is your self reflection, if I don't, you know, if if I don't feel like I'm speaking, if I don't feel like I'm gonna fit in somewhere, then I'm far less likely to go to that place. And so if you were looking through a University's website, and I'm sure this applies to other universities as well, and you've come across some sort of tradition that you don't understand. And that it seems like it's an integral part of like University culture, then maybe you would go, Oh, well, maybe this place isn't for me. The, the maybe This place isn't for me, is a huge problem. And that obviously, you know, that is just a problem for people coming to university from working class or low income backgrounds, their problems, all sorts of minority groups, you know, where you where you feel as though a place isn't for you, and therefore don't even bother applying. Yeah.

George S: 24:18

Yeah, I think that's an important point as well. It's that it's not just a matter of the people who go there and how they end up feeling which might, they might feel a bit excluded or a little bit alienated. But also all the people who, why why could you have come here but chose not to apply it? Why did you expect that you wouldn't be able to come here or you wouldn't fit?

Robert: 24:42

student satisfaction at St. Andrews, according to the NFS survey is incredibly high. incredibly well on student satisfaction. Yeah, you know, but if you say you know, how many people are self selecting out Yeah, yeah,

George S: 25:03

I suppose with the cultural capital thing, I guess there's the way the organisation, do you think there's also an element of just certain kinds of cultural knowledge. Like I mentioned earlier, like getting references that people make. And this one thing that I've encountered at university is people just allude to a load of like a huge, that I've been saying philosophy since I was an undergrad. And people make references to philosophers, but also to kind of great works of literature. Sometimes they use them as examples in first, there's a lot of that kind of thing. And, you know, occasionally i'd notice like, oh, should I know who they're referring to? Should I've gone and read that book? Is that something I'm already I can only imagine that intensified for someone who, because of their social class or their social backgrounds already might feel like they don't belong, or that there's, you know, that imposter syndrome is only going to get amplified if they're getting those kinds of feelings or messages when they're in this.

Robert: 26:05

Definitely, and I think I can, can work both ways. But I think that's definitely more, more stories of people that that don't know, that sort of thing, like what you were saying, and feeling as though they they aren't, too. And I know, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a common trope for, you know, like, first year undergraduate students to refer to skip it. And, you know, and then people people think, like, do I need to know this? And the answer is no, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, okay, so so first year philosophy, student refers to Hegel. I don't know anything about Hegel. You know, I mean,

George S: 26:48

yeah, they've absolutely not read Hegel, for the record.

Robert: 26:50

That's not, it's very, it's very easy when you are, when you find yourself immersed in, like, a new sort of culture, to and you, you do change, when, you know, and after I gave the minorities in philosophy workshop, and I was speaking to some people afterwards, after you spend some time at university, your interests start to differ from those at home. And, and the sorts of things that and it's a, it's a, it's a strange thing, because my life when I'm, when I'm with my parents back in Darlington, the sorts of things pre pandemic that we would do. And you know, for fun, are the sorts of parties that we've got to you know, even the stuff like food, we would eat in other places that we will go out to eat where we're quite different to what I would be doing at university. And it's not that it's not that like one of them is, is better or worse. For the record, I actually kind of prefer the party that we have at home. But it's just that they're different. Well, that's interesting, because I've never noticed a difference, right? Yeah, that there isn't any difference between my life and knowing that. So it's just a strange thing, knowing being in a university environment has changed you. And I'm not going to make a value judgement as to how it's changed you. But that it has, and they're quite disconnected.

George S: 28:43

Yeah, yeah, I think one thing that's come up when I've been reading about is these sorts of issues. There's actually a really good book called Limbo, blue collar roots, white collar dreams, I think it's tied to and it's about people from working class backgrounds trying to go into middle class professions. And a lot of it talks about the university experience and how any being stuck between two different worlds and not necessarily feeling entirely content because in the sort of my working class world, not because you have some value judgement about the interests of your friends back home or something, you don't think that they're wrong for being interested in what they're interested in. But as it happens, you just discover you're not interested in that stuff. That difference that you observed of the like, that was a noticeable difference between life back home and life a university that students from middle class backgrounds weren't experiencing. That also is gonna mean you know, if you don't, as much as you wouldn't necessarily feel totally at home, back home in a way that you might have used to. It doesn't mean you suddenly feel really settled and everything feels really familiar in the more middle class world.

Robert: 29:55

Yeah, so you know you go to university for the first time as an encourage Right, you're 18/19 in Scotland you're sometimes 17. Everyone as they grow older, their interests change. And much of that change will influenced fairly heavily by the environment in which they're in. So, so you know, when you when you are growing and, you know, having life experiences that university, the interests that you, you know how your interest, morph and change, you're going to be influenced by that. And meanwhile Yeah, you know, people back home, and they're interests going to be morphing and changing a different way also influenced by their environment. I guess that's, it's a divergence in and of itself. That leads to this feeling of being split between two different worlds are in the minority for the philosophy workshop that came up with that analogy of being split between two different worlds. And I heard that, at the time it clicked in my brain, cuz I never really thought about it before. But it's true. You and, and it's an you know, one word given there are these two worlds. And neither do I feel as though I fit into complete, you know, I mean, I can enjoy being, but I'm always gonna have a background. You know, and I'm always going to have experiences that are very, yeah,

George S: 31:38

that was something that almost seemed like people from working class backgrounds, who then had moved into more of a middle class environment, and especially people who had started succeeded profession, like, it seemed like there was this issue of how to then regard the upper working class environment or culture that, in some sense, felt native to them. But then was at odds with the environment they're in now. And it seemed like some people felt ashamed of that background. Some people felt proud and wanted to emphasise it, while like while being in this more middle class and or something that anyone in that position had to grapple with, even though their conclusions about it.

Robert: 32:21

Yeah, and I think I'm quite fortunate in that. It's never actually affected my mental health, being something that I've just sort of, you know, just checking in. I know, it definitely will affect people's mental health. I'm probably in the minority, and it hasn't. Yeah, I don't know if there's ever been any any research. But yeah, I think it's worth it's worth highlighting the feeling of disconnect. Is people's mental health in one way. I mean, how it's affected mine, I just don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

George S: 32:53

I mean, so it's about research. One thing that actually someone from shouldn't mind sent me a document that details some of this stuff. And I mean, it doesn't go into a lot of detail in terms of young people with low socioeconomic status, are two to three times more likely to have mental health difficulties. Who are applicants to higher education consistently more likely to disclose mental ill health at their application, And when they're 20, they're twice as likely as 18 to declare it. Now, I guess from that we don't know for certain if it's just that people's mental health gets worse, you know, or like that they're more likely to have those difficulties at 20 than 18. But it seems alienation that you've been talking about, it seems like it can be pretty pervasive.

Robert: 33:44

I can Yeah, I can imagine it really quickly. Yeah. One factor in, in my not really knowing if I didn't have a lot of a lot of friends at university that were from a low income backgrounds are the first in the family to go to university. I did know some. And, you know, we never really talked about it. You know, the the mental health impacts of being the first in your family to go to university wasn't something that we have talked about, it's not something that we've ever really talked. In fact, we never really talked about who was the first in their family to go to university. The more I think about it, the more people I know, I would actually know there were they were the first in their family to go to university. And we didn't really talk about that much either. I guess. I guess the thoughts are things don't really come up. And maybe they should.

George S: 34:40

Yeah, yeah. Because issues around social class and university aren't well understood, then it doesn't seem like it's a live issue, even among those who are from working class backgrounds to talk about even amongst themselves, because no one is saying this is the kind of thing that might make a difference for you. Even though That is the experience of a lot of people from those backgrounds.

Robert: 35:05

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they've probably these conversations probably had in some societies, you know, maybe some University societies that have these conversations. And I would imagine, I just never found myself in those spaces.

George S: 35:17

Yeah, man, I can't imagine the like, in terms of mental health, I mean, low self esteem is a big driver of low mental health. And I can only imagine, like, consistently, you're going to be there for three or four years. And you're told, these are the most important years of your life, and you got to make the best of them. And it's really important, and not just so No, I mean, there's academically you've got to work hard, this is your chance to but also socially, like your this is where you're going to meet all of your lifelong friends and all these things, if you're in that environment, being told all these positive things that are meant to be happening to you, but at the same time, you don't feel like they are happening to you or is happening, but you don't feel fully connected with it, or you can't get quite as invested as perhaps someone from a background where all of that stuff is just more familiar. That just seems like for a lot of people that would give them a sense of low self esteem, and a sense that, you know, they there are things that some people in life deserve, you know, like a good academic education and to feel a sense of community and belonging.

Robert: 36:25

Yeah, yeah, I think all of the things are definitely things that people thinking about. Yeah, yeah. I mean, imposter syndrome is incredibly pervasive. Yeah. You know, everyone, everyone always have it. Now it's out, I was just thinking recently about how I how I don't feel like I'm as good, I'm as good at my work, is, the people are their own work, you know, of talking to a friend about this. Just just, it's not to write off how erm people feeling. Because the emotions and the feelings and the sense of not belonging. But it's, it's important to remember that, you know, you're not alone in how you're feeling. If like, an undergraduate is a thing and they have tutors, their tutors are likely going to be feeling the imposter syndrome.

George S: 37:23

Yeah, I think that's a good point. I mean, definitely, I've been an undergraduate. And I'm now a PhD student. So I mean, I've not been able to do any tutoring. Hopefully, I will. I'm in my first years, hopefully, I will in my second or third year. But the idea that now I'm apparently competent enough to be the person who leads seminars of undergrads when I've been on undergrad like, and, yeah, I don't, I don't feel qualified for that. And but in a way, it's kind of reassuring that these people who when I was an undergrad, I look at honours like God, they just know everything. And they're so intelligent, and they've read so much, and they're so competent, and then you just like, yeah, you realise I remember going in, and we're going to an office hour and seeing, I think that the office kind of connected to like a common room for PhD students. And so I'm going to talk to this PhD student who is running one of my modules, and I just see that like, these PhDs, about three of them, and they have this massive board game set up and it's like some sort of Star Wars themed board game that takes hours and a lot of concentration and patience. And I that was one of those startling reminders that PhD students actually are not only not quite as competent as they might seem, but also just spend an awful lot of time avoiding doing work.

Robert: 38:42

Oh, oh, I can I can reassure people I hope my supervisor isn't listening. And I said, I only know that cause an episode of House I watched once and run the one of the students teacher has a life outside of the classroom. And I was like, I do it's true. I do. Yeah. Yeah. But I also think I was saying this before, too, that we often don't we're talking about something and I made reference to one of the one of the first like papers that was written on this topic. And like I quoted the name, the date and the person that was written by and just from memory of I just been in undergrad now this is something it just stuck in my brain for some bizarre reason. But you know, now I didn't help myself. Now I've done it again. I've gotten promoted the image that that PhD students just can just quote, pay for the memory like no, no, no,

George S: 39:42

I actually know nothing. I do know that like one really. Nish Kumar is he studied English Lit at Durham, I think it was and someone said to him on the podcast, I think someone said, Oh, have you have you? It was something like have you read that? Have you seen that film? And he said, Yeah, I'm familiar with. I haven't read it. But like, I'm not saying I haven't read it. I'm saying like that I'm getting this vague sense that even though I haven't read it, I still know exactly what you're talking about. It's a key takeaway from university is that you get to you find more sophisticated ways of saying you don't know something that also make it sound like you know, exactly,

Robert: 40:21

I think the, the, the number of, you know, make it seem like that they've, they've read a lot of books. And in reality, you know, the number of the number of books that, that the lecture is read from cover to cover, the academic book they're talking about. And it's probably,

George S: 40:42

I had a lecturer who was supervising some projects, I was working on my master's, and he lent me this book. And he said, Yes, really good book, that it's actually the only philosophy book I've ever read cover to cover. And it also wasn't a particularly long book, and I just looked at it.

Robert: 41:01

After they were calling, I want you to tell me who that was. But I think this is interesting, because I think this is this is kind of like intrinsic acknowledge, yeah, now all of this stuff is intrinsic knowledge. It's not it's not it's certainly it's not knowledge that, you know, thing, they given the task of running seminars, but they aren't experts are your lectures, you know, they do a thing, they might develop ways to make it seem like you know, a lot more about things than you actually do. And I think, that all of this is just my intrinsic knowledge. Yeah. Now that that, that, that someone from someone that is the first in their family to go to university gets might not be well,

George S: 41:40

if you've read or you watched the series Normal People, Originally, it was a book I have now, a little bit like classic issues of class University come up a lot in both the book and the series. And there's a point in the book where so there's, there's one character called Connor, who goes to it's what Oxbridge is in England. Oh, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a bit where in the book, Connor was in some of his first English Lit seminars. And I think he's his maybe his first time or something, and he's just getting to grips with it. And he's feeling like a massive imposter. And then he has to, he says, he feels like an imposter. Partly because all the other students are talking in these very high minded abstract ways about the text, and they seem to have all this, they seem to be able to talk about it a level of abstraction that is just totally beyond him. And then he later realises No, they just haven't read the book. And so the reason that's talking in high minded abstractions is because they can't give any detail about what's happened. But like, one thing that was interesting about that, from a kind of social class perspective was, I was talking to a friend of mine, who a certain kind of shame or a certain kind of guilt, because she said, You know, like, she studied English in Sydney, I've definitely done that I've kind of talked. I mean, who knows how convincing it is to actually actual electrodes who've read the actual books, or whatever. But you know, that she had done that kind of thing, and realised that some of the ability to do that came from this sense of, like, an internal sense of confidence that I can go into this room. And even though I haven't read this book, rather than keep silent about it, I'm going to talk in a way that in addition to the intrinsic knowledge of like, how to sound convincing about something, there's also the confidence of how you feel when you walk into a seminar room, and what kind of options you feel like you have, do you think that if you haven't read it, you just have to keep silent? Or do you think you can say things?

Robert: 43:47

And all of this is intrinsic knowlegde, Now, none of this is none of the none of the things are things that that that? You know, if not, no, no, I mean, no, no, you probably should be in a university room at University far more accessible, and but none of all of all of all of the, you know, the idea, it is possible to walk into a university seminar, having not done any of the reading and still be able to contribute. And should you do it? No. But it's intrinsic knowledge. You know, it's something it's something you're told by people that have been through the process and haven't gone through the process. I now know that that you know, because there's lots of ways to contribute to a seminar. Yeah. Just contributing to a seminar can happen, you know, not necessarily in trying to talk about the text, but by listening closely asking questions. Yeah. Now if you if you haven't read the if you haven't read for the seminar, you can still contribute by asking questions about, you know what, you have to work out for yourself. If you're the first in your family is going to university. Now unless someone happens to tell you.

George S: 44:54

Yeah, definitely. What effect Do you think these kinds of issues have when it comes To postgraduate study, especially.

Robert: 45:04

Yeah, so postgraduate study is essential, because money definitely is an issue when it comes to postgraduate study. For, there's almost no money, you know, the English Scottish system is different. And education is devolved. I don't know anything about the Scottish system. I know that last night, but if you are a resident of England, you're entitled to a Postgraduate Loan of 11,000 children 22 pounds if your cost starts on or after 2020. And I received 10,609 pounds, the standard student loan, I believe, anyway, obviously check everything yourself. But if you think about that, for a moment, you can think about the money for a moment. The Philosophy MLit at St Andrews, if you are a home student is 9900 pounds. That's a year long Master's programme. So if you do the math, you know, 11,222 minus 9900. This 1022 is some standard self catered accommodation that's on their website with 5406, excluding utilities, and 6738, including, the post-graduate accommodation. Now, there are some bursaries for low income people, you know, if you want, when you can live off, that's been expensive. You know, if you want to go to the pub and have a social life, then the amount of money that you get from the end, those sorts of issues aren't limited to St. Andrews, either I double checked the the the one year Philosophy at York is 8540 full time. Leeds advertises 9099. So it's not expensive. It's you know, these prices are fairly standard for when you're taught masters should offer. And none of us were taught math. So I'm fortunate in that my parents were able to take out a loan to help me like a bank loan. So they're able to fill in that shortfall. At PhD, it gets a little better the English loan makes it a little more feasible. Um, but there's still a sharp fall, like I said, at the top, my granddad is helping me eat. Yeah. And without, without him, I literally wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing. Right? Well, I wouldn't be able to be doing my PhD. You know, which means I wouldn't. And so, you know, so the financial barriers exist there for people from a low income background. And it's not like, it's an extra thing that you can do, like it was once of a postgraduate, you know, in, in some cases, you know, you you need to go on to do more postgraduate study. And in order to be more competitive in the job market, you know, and some jobs, you literally need to do postgraduate study, you know, I mean, and the only way to do that is to follow the path that I'm doing all of that, you know, there is a barrier to entry, which is, yeah, you know, the barrier to entry is, is now, obviously, you could respond and say, Well, there are some scholarships available. It's true, exactly what they're based on can vary, often their best academic merit. And, but there's so few, so you have to have extraordinarily high academic merit. Yeah, I'm, I'm okay. with it. It is slightly frustrating that, you know, you can meet the entry requirements for a course, which obviously,I did, yeah, now, it's not, it's not enough to be good enough to get into the course, you then have to be, it's that sort of financial barrier to entry that is almost certainly keeping people out. And it's obviously compounded. There's a gap between the number of people from a low income background that go to university. You know, so, you have low representation of fight, same people that want free school meals at university, you have low representation of those students. And then once again, you'll have even less representation of those students at postgraduate level. Because, you know, you start off with a low number and then the affordability of postgraduate level study is just substantially lowered, you know, it's much less affordable. And it really it requires alternative sources of income. Other than loan that you can get it requires, you know, you you need to do a master's first. And that's a bit that's

George S: 50:05

me. Yeah, I mean, it's so true, I have a friend who is from a working class, low income background. And what's been so remarkable, is just have the same aspirations that we both wanted to do a master's in philosophy, both wanted to do PhDs in philosophy, I mean, I don't know if I still wants to become an academic, but like, that might be something I would pursue, at least if I complete my PhD, I'm certainly in a position to try I've been able to pursue a PhD. And he hasn't. And the only real difference, there is money. I mean, he was trying this. The other striking thing is he was trying to do his master's part time, which is, like a way I know, some students from more low income backgrounds can try and do this. But even with that, they were finding that they didn't, they didn't have enough time, because they were working so much. Or if they wanted more time, they had to work less than they wouldn't have enough money. And that was just like the toss up that they were faced with. And they had to quit. And that was, they only needed to survive for the year for that for the least for the Masters, because it was only a one. And that's just one example. And if you just multiply that and you imagine how many people never get to do the Masters, they learn never get to do the PhDs. They're not even in the running. And, and then as well, with the funding situation, funding is so competitive. And mean, especially PhD, we have a thing at Sheffield ground doing my PhD across Sheffield, York and Leeds called the white rose, which you might have, and that provides like really good funding, it pays your fees, it pays you 15 grand a year and stipend. But it's so competitive. And I remember so I got turned down for it twice. And I remember talking to someone I was feeling kind of frustrated, because is this not enough? And I was talking to someone else. And they said yeah, to be honest. Like there was someone we know who went on to university challenge and had like the most glittering academic CV, you've got like this requirement of extreme academic like exceptional academic merit, which most people potentially regardless of background often be able to meet. But also because the loans are based totally on academic merit. And as you say, there are some bursaries, but in my experience, when I've looked, bursaries tend to be much less than the scholarships for academic merit. And the other weird thing is then, so on someone who, happily, you know, because of my family's financial situation, I was more than able to do a PhD without getting a scholarship. And then that was really weird position to then I found myself wondering if I should even apply for it. So I think, well, I don't need, I'm not going to be unable to do this PhD without the scholarship. So if I get it, I would be taking it away from someone else who might need it more than me. But because no one's asking that question. I might also not be saying like, it might just go to someone who's even better off than me. So it's not, it became this is the university's responsibility to say, Well, actually, we want people from low income backgrounds to come here. So we're gonna supply the means for them to do that. And yet, you seem to have kind of chosen not to

Robert: 53:21

that strange imposter syndrome as well, around this, that I, so because I didn't get any filter funding, I kind of I sometimes felt like, well, am I you know, I feel like I've sort of like bought my way into it. Yeah, as you make, I mean, you know, it can be crazy. This is completely irrational. You know, I'm definitely good enough. It's just a question. It just it just fit because because a funding body, give me like the official stamp and go, yes, your research is worth giving money to it raises, And obviously, this is this is that if automatic and and this isn't going to be something that's only held by people from, you know, low income background, it's gonna be held by everyone. And there isn't anyone that isn't funded could could feel this way. Because, you know, you think, well, this sort of feel, like I've bought my way into it, even though I'm either very clever, being a student to supervise it, it's still it's a very strange thing. Because on the one hand, I am extremely fortunate in that, in that I, you know, I have access to the English loan, and I have access to a small amount of family money that can help me survive for the three years. Let's not talk about the fourth year, we haven't worked that one out yet. So you know, it sounds very fortunate in that position, so then it just feels odd yet again, to, you know, complain. Yeah, to say, you know, I, you know, I don't feel like I really belong here, you know, I to complain about, you know, the luxury of feeling like that, like, I've bought my way onto the PhD to feel that way. It's just a lot of very confusing emotions involved. And, and it feels, you know, just just talking about it feels a bit long. Yeah. Now I feel a slightly frightening, awkward thinking in your mind and speaking it aloud. You're always extremely different. And, yeah,

George S: 55:47

yeah, I mean, she said, like, when you use expression bought your way. And I mean, that was something I didn't phrase it like that. But it does really get at what that experience is like, because I have the same thing. I mean, I'm in this, I'm in this incredibly fortunate position where, basically, I've, I recently bought my first flat. And I'm very aware, it's incredibly lucky to do that I was able to buy it without a mortgage, because I just had a lot of this family money, and it seemed like a sensible thing to do. And I had money left over to do a PhD. And like, that's, I don't know anyone really in that position, especially at my age. But then there is still the nagging imposter syndrome of like, Yeah, but I'm only here because I can afford to be here. I'm not here. Because as you say, like some funding body has said, Well, we have to have him, and we're going to put all of our money behind them. It's like, it's a weird feeling. And it's, yeah, it feels what as you said, it feels weird to kind of complain about it. Because it's, it's a kind of advantage to know that you don't depend on that kind of funding. But that we'll just very openly say, Yeah, those funding bodies are ridiculous. And they it's quite arbitrary what they choose to fund and what they don't. And it's not a reflection of the actual quality of the research. But it's still possible to feel the imposter

Robert: 57:09

Yeah. Yeah. I do feel very strong about it. Don't syndrome Don't just think back to the sorts of things I was saying earlier about not wanting to be there the PhD on the programme. It's an honour that have, you know, just enough family money to eat. But not enough? Yeah. And the other thing as well with it, that I try to remind myself about it. Okay, so my, so, you know, my, both of my parents are in fairly, my mom works for the NHS, and my dad worked for a large supermarket chain, and neither of them are going anywhere, anytime. So in that sense, I am incredibly fortunate, just at that level, you know, and my parents have a mortgage on this house that they bought in, like, the 90s, before the housing market, you know, before the the market went, you know, either through the flower through the roof, depending on which analogy, you know, so like, you know, there's lots of things that, that I'm very, very fortunate. But I guess when I think back, you know, to the stories that my parents have told me about when I was younger things that I don't really remember, you know, but things I can't, you know, something I can tell you this one story that's stuck with me, she was really, really upset because she couldn't afford to like buy m new stuff when I was little. Now, in a very fortunate pos tion, where rarely to do this ty e of thing. But like all of this background, you know, is why I came from, you know, and it's st ll, it's given me that I may e wouldn't have had, and sinc it with my life, when I was rowing up and developi g our, maybe I wasn't consci usly aware of it. I'm sure it s impacted, you know, someth ng in my development. And, y u know, just just the environm nt that I grew up in, and, you k ow, growing up in the North ast where I did. And, you now, again, I'm sure it's impac ed. My, it's

George S: 59:21

one thing I have kind of encountered with people who have come from very low income backgrounds is, it seems like the concerns around money Don't go away, even when the actual financial concerns have been kind of settled for the time being where, you know, someone could be in a very stable job, they could earn a lot of money. They could have a very, like, financially secure future in front of them. But if there's one thing that came up in that book Limbo that I mentioned earlier, is when you have a couplw when you have like someone from a working class background and someone from middle class background together. There are these arguments because the The person with a middle class background so you know why why you bothered about like that tenner that you have to spend or that like that bill that came for, you know, we can afford it, what's the problem? But for them it has the other person, it has this kind of sense of significance, because it traces back to this kind of formative period in their life when that would have been the big Yeah, yeah, one of

Robert: 1:00:21

I think, I think that I think that definitely holds the, true. And now one of the reasons that, that, that my grandad is able to give me money is because, you know, they didn't have much money when they were growing up. Yeah, he was, he was born during the war. And in like, a rural, a fairly rural village, no doubt. Um, and so, when they got slightly better jobs, my granddad, they saved a lot, you know, they had this awareness of money, and, and we're just very aware of, you know, the possibility, and they've never bought expensive things they've never, you know, bought, like, designer clothing, or whatever, it's not. Like, it's of no interest to them. And because, you know, they look at a, no, they look at like a pair of, like, a design a top or whatever. And I think a lot of these a lot of these factors combined, and it's not, and I don't think it's, it's not something I would really be aware of, you know, if em if it's not an environment that you grew up in.

George S: 1:01:41

Now, I can imagine this sort of, like, imagine that creating anxiety around money, that would, might be kind of quite persistent?

Robert: 1:01:55

Yeah. I mean, I. So, I know, it can manifest in a lot of different ways. For me, admittedly, it's not too bad. But that's only because very started, like, I started off my PhD. I, I am budgeted such that. Such that I knew all of like the entire 3 years, fully covered. So I got I, you know, spreadsheet whole thing worked out. And I just, occasionally I go back and check it out with like, just to make sure. It's not like I have any other money to fall back on, you know, that's it. And so, like, I'm part of that is just that, you know, I don't have the mental space to really think about it, I need to, I need to, I need to work it out once. And I mean, some some of this will be my spld as well, but I need to work that once. And then just trust myself. I got it right. And just like try and. So I guess that I started out with more of an awareness, than than I initially made out, maybe I'm just used to it. Yeah,

George S: 1:03:24

think that's the other thing, as well as I've had to do yeah, I something similar in terms of, you know, doing the budgeting trying to fit, especially I think I'm conscious of the fact that like, once you sign on to a PhD, you're kind of committed, and you might you might be able to do some work on the side, there's a degree to which you don't want to have to be forced into having to do you don't want to have to do any more. I think there's the anxiety of like, one, like running out of money before the PhD is over. And then it's this thing of like, well, you have you want to complete the PhD, but how are you going to do it without money? But then there's also, you know, I don't want to complete my PhD and have absolutely no money just cause there's some, there's some anxiety there of like that, that puts a lot of pressure on getting a job immediately. You know, I do know, if I was in that position, my parents could give me more money. But there's obviously some of the one, not wanting to ask, yeah, just a sense of like, well, I want to manage my money effectively is mentally taxing to an extent to have to think about it and to monitor it in that way.

Robert: 1:04:33

Yeah. And the philosophy job market is I am very aware, every philosophy PhD student, that you know, they are doing their work and they are really extraordinarily challenging to get a job. I mean, it's true that erm no longer is just getting a PhD enough. No You have to get PhDs, you have to, you have to get your PhD. And you also you're also expected to publish and, and, you know, multiple things. And However, if one thing you know, and then do other activities, you know, in order to try to, I'm doing all this and I have accrued, you know, government debt, and a large amount of it, people can do the math. And, and so, my, my, you know, as much as you can afford, and, and, like, my parents took out a loan to do my masters. And it's perfectly possible that I won't get a job. Yeah. And, and, you know, and that isn't, that isn't a thing, that's just, you know, that isn't something that's just me. And there's people that this, there are some PhD students at St. Andrews, that, that that work during their, during their PhD, you know, not not just tutoring, that's obviously a lot of a lot of work for them. And having to try to juggle both of those things, all of our things. And it's just a lot of pressure on yourself. And, and I think it's important to acknowledge that, even though, you know, we're both in an incredibly fortunate position, it doesn't make problems or concerns go away. Usually, they just transfer. You know, I mean, I mean, I'm, I'm a very anxious boy. And, you know, okay, so, so fine, I'm not being anxious about money, but, I mean, I'm still gonna be anxious about something, you know, I'm still gonna find something to be anxious about. So I think it's important for people that that are in fortunate positions to, you know, cut themselves some slack, and, and not feel the guilt. And you can still struggle with yourmental health, and, and it is important for everyone. Yes.

George S: 1:07:23

Yeah. Yeah, I think Yeah, I think that's a really important point is that can be in the same way. When we started talking about imposter syndrome, and there's that feeling of well, you know, I'm not qualified to talk about this subject to be a spokesperson, because I haven't had it as bad as I could have had it. I think there's, there's my sense of like, I'm not qualified to feel depressed or anxious. Like, I've not had the worst like, there's, there's always someone who will have it worse than you. And you can always imagine that, well, that of course, they would feel like they're going to be justified in feeling that way. Sometimes, I think that can be its own symptom of it, especially things like depression, maybe anxiety, as well as like, it's like, it's not enough that I'm depressed. But the fact that I'm depressed shows that I'm a bad person, because a good person would be really grateful and appreciative of all the good things and how fortunate they are. So like, my depression tells me that I'm just massively self indulgent, or don't realise how good I have it. And I think that's like, that's quite a common thing to feel. And I felt because I felt that in the past, and I think it was helpful for me to notice that that was a symptom. Yeah.

Robert: 1:08:27

I, I think it's very easy to fall into a pattern and fall into like, but human emotion is very complicated. Other. Yeah, I don't think that's a, it is extremely complicated. And you and, yeah, nothings simple. When it comes to human emotion, so you didn't just remember that. And just be kind to yourself, you know?

George S: 1:08:57

Yeah.

Robert: 1:08:58

I think that's, that's the key. Now, we're all still kinda like learning.

George S: 1:09:03

I'm conscious of the fact that I haven't asked you about, you mentioned it before, minorities, and philosophy. And that's how you and I met? Is your mindset, one of these events to do with experience of working class students University, you want to say a little bit like, what is map?

Robert: 1:09:20

And what is it map or maps? - Minorities and Philisophy . They are an international network of students that aims at addressing issues of inclusivity and minority participation in philosophy, or at least that's what their website says. And that's true. You know, and they have chapters in various universities around the world. And Andrews has one. And, you know, they've been really good. Shout out to the postgraduate research representative Laura who's excellent and always willing to like work for like, meaningful change. And I was ready to get involved with things. Something that has been raising awareness for the barriers of people with dyslexia. And so I'm dyslexic. Well, I have an FPOD. That's most commonly referred to as dyslexic, dyslexia. But I have like, ADHD traits and things and things. And MAP and the PhD in the department have been super smarter about like pushing meaningful changes, things around like, like fonts and formatting in the British dyslexia Association have a fantastic style guide. On fonts and formatting, and I didn't realise I was affected by it. But um serif fonts are harder to read than Sans Serif fonts for a lot of dyslexics. So I just did put I'm dyslexic so times new roman is harder to read than for Arial. Okay, so formatting work in Arial, size 12 makes reading anything easier. And that department have been fantastic at implementing changes. Relating to that. So that's, that's excellent. And, you know, I'm really pleased that they've been very receptive. And, and I'm hoping that this, that there's more things that we're able to do with a thing pop up you now because not every dyslexic has the same, same issues. So not every single dyslexic is going to be is going to find certain fonts, harder to read, like find sans, finds serif fonts harder to read. And it's a fairly common thing. And I just didn't realise until I started doing a lot of marking and switching between serif and sans serif. So you know, there's gonna be more things that come up. And, and MAP have been super supportive in pushing for those, those changes. Now, you know, in all areas of minorities in philosophy, a lot of the underrepresented groups. And that's basically that's how I understand it anyway.

George S: 1:12:28

Yeah, that sounds really good. Yeah, I didn't even know this stuff about

Robert: 1:12:32

fonts, high contrast backgrounds, and are harder for Dyslexics to read. So, like black text on a white background is harder to read. And than say, like a pastel blue background with dark blue text. It just makes it much easier to read. And along with the other things as well. But, you know, the British dyslexia Association has all of the information on their website, and it's written obviously, in a very effective, friendly way. Oh, it's good. So they have a style guide. And that's super useful. And, and, and, yes, I would encourage people to check it out, if they want to be more aware of you know, making making their work more accessible.

George S: 1:13:13

Okay, now, I can link to that in the description. And

Robert: 1:13:19

I'll just give out the, the, the MAP, contact email, which is on their website, which is map map UK, that's MAPUK dot SASP (sasp) St. andrews.ac.uk. And they can they'll be able to email they also have the under the map chapter has a website,

George S: 1:13:40

presumably as well, if there's a map in their university that you can look for that as well.

Robert: 1:13:45

Definitely, yes. And they and they should and I'm sure MAP would say if they, if not a chapter in their university, if their philosophy is philosophy, if I was not one, they would be encouraged to create one. Yeah. And, and yeah, and people can email me at RPB4 at St. andrews.ac.uk. you have anything to talk about philosophy of mind our consciousness? Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's where people can contact me if they have any questions

George S: 1:14:21

Okay, great. Yeah. And if if there's anyone listening to this, who would like to talk more about their own experience of coming from a working class background, and being at university? I know the Student inds blog encourages people to log, especially if they're from inority background. And specially any working class fficers who'd be interested c ming on the podcast, talk a out this. I'd be interested in h aring from I'm sure everyone s ouldn't mind spins in hearing a out that. Yeah, that's coming o the podcast.

Robert: 1:14:55

Thank you for having

George S: 1:14:57

I hope you enjoyed the episode. As mentioned. If you're looking for mental health support, there's a variety of resources available that I've linked to in the description. And if you enjoy the podcast do let others know about it, we're trying to spread the word and thank you for listening