Positive Changes in Placements: A chat with Izzy de George

In this episode, Danny interviews Isabella de George on her nationwide campaign/movement to get universities to better improve their policies and well-being services for students, in particular placement students in memory of her brother Harrison. 

Links: 
Positive Changes ;n Placements - https://linktr.ee/isabella.degeorge and @positivechangesinplacement
Mad Millennials - https://ideali.st/aQJjeT 
Student Minds - https://www.studentminds.org.uk/
Student Space - https://www.studentminds.org.uk/coronavirus.html
National Suicide Prevention Alliance - https://nspa.org.uk/
Papyrus - https://www.papyrus-uk.org/
Samaritans - https://www.samaritans.org/
Mind - https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/helping-someone-else/supporting-someone-who-feels-suicidal/useful-contacts/

Transcript

Danny: 0:03

Welcome to the changing MENtality podcast. If you're a brand new listener, then this is a podcast brought to you by a group of young male students from all across the UK, just opening up and discussing topics surrounding our mental health. But if this isn't your first time listening in on the podcast, then I'm sure you know the crack. And welcome back in this episode of the podcast, I had the absolute pleasure of having a discussion with Izzy de George, who is currently campaigning for changes in university policies and in wellbeing support for placement students, all of this in memory of her brother Harrison, not only do we just talk about her campaign, but we also talk about our own experiences through mental health, and about social constructs and a little bit of politics. So it gets really juicy, but it was a great chat that I really enjoyed having with her. And I hope you enjoy it too. And I'm sure it goes without saying but all the opinions expressed within the episode belong to myself and Izzy, they are ours alone, and they don't belong to anyone else. So just before I start the interview, just a bit of a content warning. There will be mentions of death, suicide, grief, there'll also be some adult language sprinkled in there for good measure. And if you find yourself being affected by anything mentioned within the episode, please check out the description. And you might find some useful links there. I'm also aware of a couple of technical issues that are within the episode, but hopefully you won't spot them. And I'll get away with it. But yeah, enjoy. Just to kick things off, if you don't mind. just introducing yourself like who you are and what you're doing at the moment.

Izzy De George: 1:46

And so I'm Izzy, I'm 25. And I am a nurse, I work in London. But at the moment, I'm campaigning for positive changes in placement. So basically a memory of my brother. So that's the campaign name. But I'll go a bit more into it in a bit.

Danny: 2:02

Yeah, no, that's what that's that's Fantastic. Yeah. So when did you graduate? Then if you are when When did you become full time nurse

Izzy De George: 2:14

A long time ago, it feels I graduated nearly five years ago. So I went to tired of uni. And I did children's nursing there. And it's coming up my fifth year of qualification, which is utterly terrifying. But I yeah, I qualified in 2016. And I've been working in London since I miss uni. uni was great.

Danny: 2:34

Yeah, that's amazing. No fair play. And have you moved from nursing to full? Are you campaigning full time, because I can see a lot, a lot of activity on your socials like you are very busy.

Izzy De George: 2:46

Oh my goodness, I've never been too busy in my entire life. So I work eight to four, four days a week, which is doing education for Filipino nurses. So we recruit from overseas, and they come over work with us. And I basically deliver them like a teaching package and prepare them for working in the UK, which is a really cool job. And then in my spare time, I'm doing all of this campaigning. So on my one day a week, I tend to schedule all my meetings for that one day week with universities and, and whatnot. And then in the evenings, I'll do bits like this, or scheduling meetings with people who can't make it during the day and stuff. So it is very full time. And then I tend to kind of be on my emails till about 10 o'clock at night. And so I do try to take like I do try to take the weekends off. And just reply to the email if I have to. And to be fair, like, I think I did take like the past four days off. So I took like, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday off because I was like I just need time away. But now I regret it because I have so many emails to come back. But I just I like be staying relevant on social media and stuff. I just posting a lot of things because I think it keeps people interested as well.

Danny: 3:59

Yeah, I definitely find that like, with social media, the more content you put out there, even if you think yourself it's insignificant, more content for people to see. So yes, you're engaged. I think you're consistently popping up closer and closer to first on our change of mentality, social media. So you're doing something right.

Izzy De George: 4:23

Like, I mean, a lot of it is just reposting other people's stuff. But then I'm like, if it's relevant, and I do it, but I that's one thing is I don't want people to kind of forget about the campaign. But equally, I see a lot of interesting stuff over social media. And I'm like, people need to see this. This is really interesting.

Danny: 4:39

Yeah, social media has become very, I think, full at the moment. And before I think the pandemic it was, you'd get the odd campaign, but now it feels like a lot of people's like, for me, what I've noticed is people starting up small businesses, and they're putting themselves online or a lot of like campaigns. like yourself, or movements, or have moved online as well. So yeah, it can be really overwhelming at times. But like, in contrast, like there's so much positivity going on in there, like exactly what you're doing, you see that movement change is and can be happening for good rather than just, I don't know, people shoving nasty comments at each other. If you stay away from the comment section, you're good, but like,

Izzy De George: 5:28

yeah, I mean, I, it's funny actually, like me and my friend were discussing earlier today, we were talking about influencers. And we were both saying that we've unfollowed every influencer, there's only a couple that I will follow that are like body positivity ones, I won't follow anything to do with clothing posts, and all these other like teeth products and stuff, because it's just, it's so bad for you to see. And I then had a look through who I follow on my personal social media. And I was like, actually, I just, I follow my friends, celebrities that I find funny or interesting. Yeah. And then a lot of like, today, like a lot of grief pages, or mental health pages and stuff like that. And it's, it's interesting. And I, I enjoy getting on social media, because I'm not having things I don't like being rammed down my throat. Yeah,

Danny: 6:12

definitely. I think I did a similar cleanup a year or so ago. Except I've sort of, I've sort of whittled down to people who maybe I've lost contact with them. And then they post the odd picture every now and again. And it makes me happy. Animals, you know, like everyone I follow like a one eyed cat called Willow, and it just breaks my heart and makes my day every day. But even if I found myself during the pandemic, like there was a point where I felt not not low, but I was I was met, if that makes sense. I was just not here nor there. But I didn't want sort of reminding of my own mental health consistently. And yeah, well, then I realised that I followed like, loads of mental health pages, and I was like, Oh, my god, they're all churning information at me. So I decided to make a separate account. That's just for like mental health. So every now and again, I'd switch back and forth. When I feel like I need help, or if I feel like I need reminding, or if a friend asked me for a recommendation, or for some advice, I've jumped on to the second account. But otherwise, it's just friends. People fallen over animals on my on my feet. Okay, you can't go wrong with an animal page. Well, you know, cockapoos I love? Yeah, exactly. Everyone's like, I don't have any animals. And I don't have anyone to like, share an animal with. So social media has got to be the way like those, you know, everyone needs an animal, definitely. So tell me a little bit more about the campaign, please.

Izzy De George: 7:52

So basically, I started the campaign up after my brother passed away. So he was at Manchester Met University. And he was a PGCE. Student. And he was having a really good time. But I think there was a few problems there. But after my brother passed away, we noticed that no one from the placement had gotten in contact with the university. So we called up Manchester Met the following day to let them know that Harrison had passed away. And they had absolutely no idea that he'd never turned up to placement on the Monday. Which really surprised me because so as a nurse, I've done a lot of work with student nurses, one of my roles for a year was literally working with student nurses. And it was basically like, if a student didn't turn up to the placement, the ward would call me, I would then let the university know. And it was always at the earliest opportunity, you let someone know, and the university can follow up. And I mean, 99.999% of time, it was very, very, very minor. It was like, I overslept, or they forgotten to turn up to the shift, or it was kind of a consistently consistent student who didn't really tend to turn up. So it wasn't overly concerning. You have the odd one where it was a little bit like, Oh, we need to chase this up. But it was just something to kind of safeguard them. So when I found out that the placement never like Manchester Met, know, I was really intrigued by this. And I was like, That's weird. They should have done that. So my brother is his girlfriend. She's also PGCE. Student. And I said to her, do you mind if I have left your handbooks, and the handbooks were very much. This is what we expect from you, not what we're going to give you in return. And also their policy in terms of unmodified absence was two days. So only after two days, did the placement then have to let the university know. So we had a conversation with Manchester Met to talk about Harrison passing away and their handbook. And first of all, the leads from the school didn't even know what handbook I was talking about until I explicitly explained and they and this isn't their fault that you know, You get changeovers of lecturers, policies get very, very outdated. And no, you don't have to think about these things until something happens. And so they then looked into their Handbook, and they made some really, really positive changes to it. So they changed it to if a student doesn't turn up to placement, then the placement must let the university know, as soon as possible. The personal tutor then must contact to the next of kin if they can't get in contact with the student. And if there is concerns about the student's welfare between the person tutor and the next of kin, then the police have to get involved. So I think for example, if the personal tutor had contacted myself or my mom, we would have said, yeah, that's that's not right of Harrison. It is weird. He, he turns up to placement. So at that point, the police would go in. So far, that's about they also added in a massive section to do with well being. So internal sources and external support systems for their which was really, really good. And they also created a Mental Health Forum within their PGCE students. And the lecturers are doing really regular check ins with their students, because they recognise it's a really difficult time, particularly when they're on placement, and they were away from university. And then the final thing that they did was offer all of their lectures within the PGCE department for more training on how to recognise and support students with potential mental health difficulties. So they went above and beyond and I was so appreciative of it, because they didn't have to their policies weren't. They weren't bad by any means they but they're definitely not the worst I've seen. But it really made a difference to us. And it made us feel like they actually really cared about what had happened. Yeah, so I thought about it. And I was like, I wonder what's going on. I was like, I wonder if other universities are the same. So I put it out onto social media. And I got a lot of retweets and stuff from people were like, I'm a patient student, and they started telling me about their stories and things. So as a result, I've joined up with a charity called mad millennials, which is like a mental health charity for, I don't know, people kind of our age, like 20s, and things like that. They've got like a mentoring system. And they were like, how to talk to us. Let's see if we can help you at all. Because I had all these ideas. I didn't know how to process anything. Yeah. And so I've joined forces with them. They've helped me to kind of order my thoughts. And now what I'm doing is there's two different avenues to campaign. So the first Avenue is I've contacted every single university in the country to find out what their policies are for placement students, particularly around unnotified absences, and finding out if they've got a student handbook for patient students. And is there anything related to well being in there? Are they doing check ins with their placement students? And do their lecturers get appropriate support, if they're the only people that can support them, for example, if there's not a welfare team? So I'm getting quite a lot of responses from that, which is really positive. And I'm having a chat with universities. And I am finding that it's not, it's not a one size fits all approach. It's working out what is best for them. And basically making sure that they're opening up their conversation on placement students, and they are thinking, actually, are we doing enough for our placement students. So that's kind of the first channel to it. And then the second channel is basically getting government ministers involved to try and create some legislation. So what I have found from the campaign is after speaking to a lot of people, there is nothing to regulate universities for adhering to frameworks and strategies around mental health. So you've got the Suicide Safer one by Papyrus, and universities, UK, and then you've got the student mental health charter. And a lot of universities aren't following them. They're not doing anything about it. And speaking to government ministers, it's we actively encouraged them to, to follow these strategies, and they're not suicide in universities is is rocketing, and there's clearly not enough being done. So I'm kind of going for a cross party approach in the sense of I tried to get in with the current government, it's not working. So I'm going in with the opposition to try and create some kind of legislation to make them actually adhere to it to make them be like we have to adhere to at least 75% of a framework or something. Because at the moment, there is nothing to say that they have to do anything for their students. Yeah. And so it's quite a big campaign. Yeah, bigger than I ever anticipated it to be. But it's interesting.

Danny: 14:24

No, but it's much needed. Like just First things first, like fair to Manchester might because I imagine you've probably brought this to them in December or January. Yeah, it was mid December that we brought it to them. Yeah, that they acted quickly like that very quick for a university to turn around and make all the changes that they did to the handbook and then offer an all the training as well. I tried getting I tried to get the training, Derby for just the union stuff, just so that they they're better prepared for just to students to approach them, I guess. And if nothing ever came of it, nothing ever, it was always our there's a price issue or, oh, we need to contact this person and nothing I forgot happened. So for Manchester, Met to turn around, pull it up, pull it all out of the bag. That's really that's really encouraging, you know?

Izzy De George: 15:20

Yeah, they've been, they've been amazing. And they've been very much like, we want to stay involved in the campaign, let us let us know what we can do to help. And then in all fairness to them, and they made those changes in less than six weeks. So I think we had the conversation with them. Just before Christmas, and at the beginning of February, the changes have already been made, which is amazing. And it shows it can be done. Yeah, exactly.

Danny: 15:41

Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. Like, it just shows just puts a point out there that this can be done. You know, not every university might have the capacity to do it within six weeks, but at the same time, like it's, it can be done at some point. Why can't you do your best to make sure you're on top of these things? Yeah. And then, if it is a massive campaign, like Fair fucks to you as well, secondly, because this is massive, are you working on this by yourself? Or do you have like a little team? Or is it your family, or,

Izzy De George: 16:16

I mean, it's basically me. So the email to the universities, and I created an Idiot's Guide for my family to send emails. So I got my mum to find the well being an email address for every university, but she went out and did, which was amazing. And fair play, to her, then I gave them a guide on how to send my emails that I want them to send. So a lot of them did send out emails for me, I ended up doing a lot myself. But now the responses are coming in. It's all it's all on me, because they don't know what I want them to say. And each University's response is so different to one another. And luckily, I've got friends who are helping me in a sense, like, I've got a friend who used to go to Bath, so he's helping me with those meetings. A girl who I've met through social media goes to Reddit, and so she's helping me with those. So there is the odd person. But yeah, it's me. It's me.

Danny: 17:06

Yeah, that's amazing. And what sort of what sort of a replies he sort of getting from universities? Are they asking you for, like, what do you want us to do? Or are they what what are they coming up with?

Izzy De George: 17:17

And so it's very varied. So I contacted every university now, I think probably 65 out of 140 odd have replied, which I'm pretty happy with in all honesty, so about a third of those have been, we need a Freedom of Information request. So those are going through all of those channels, because they don't want to just give me their information. Yeah, which is fair. I'm getting a couple who were very much like we think we're doing enough. We don't need your help, which I've been like, okay, that's fine. You can just go my blacklist, don't worry about it. Like no worries, if you do need any help, I'm here. But then they're going on my secret list to kind of be a bit like, like, Look, these are the university is not doing anything. Literally is written in my book is a blacklist. So you don't want to end up. But a lot of them have been really, really good. A lot of them have been like, we've acknowledged your email, like we're really, really sorry for your loss. And I think I know, obviously, you shouldn't have to have a story to help you with something. But I think the story is so poignant that people were like, actually, they do want to get back to me because it's rude otherwise. Yeah, but a lot of people being like, we'll get the information, we'll get back to you a lot of very much like, this is great. Let's, let's have a meeting and see what we can do. In all fairness, there's probably about five or six universities who have such cracking policies, there's nothing that I need to touch with them. And one of those is Cardiff, I went to so I was like, Yeah, I was really buzzing actually. And so there is some that don't need touching. And I'm just like, well, don't keep doing what you're doing. Not that I would like to hear to kind of regulate everything. But yeah, I like to think that I'm can be here to kind of help guide them in a certain way. So yeah, so it's, it's getting responses. What I'll probably do is the ones who don't reply, I'm going to send follow up emails. And that's where my, my people can come back into. But yeah, it's not it's not doing too badly, actually. And I'm quite, I'm quite happy with it. But no,

Danny: 19:20

that's really encouraging, especially like, moving it beyond just the the borders of university because obviously, University is a stepping stone into your adult life. And I guess, once someone's through it, and out the other end, I guess a lot of universities sort of lose touch with their students. So bringing it down to legislation. For me, one of the first thoughts that came to my head when you mentioned that, bringing it to the government and cross party and whatever was that there's a chance here to make something lasting, not just For a university level, but it needs to start earlier on. Because I'm sure you're very aware. And then through me through my experiences, and through what I've studied is that lll mental health doesn't just happen overnight, it can be a moment or an incident that then grows over time. And that usually cat and mouse, most of the time happens during childhood or adolescence, because Because obviously, our brains are still forming. Like, myself, for example, like I lost my sister when I was 10. But I didn't fully cope or comprehend what was going on in a healthy way. So by the time I was 19, I'm like, Okay, this isn't normal. You know, I shouldn't be feeling like this. I shouldn't I should be able to sleep whenever I want. Yeah, I shouldn't have these chest pains. I shouldn't be having these thoughts. And then, you know, then I'm told the information I needed to hear 10 years ago. So what excites me most about what you're doing, is now's a chance to, to do something earlier on to be even more proactive rather than reactive. Yeah, makes sense? Definitely. Yeah. So the other thing that I was thinking about was, it's not not in any just disregard or disrespect to yourself. But it's, it makes me feel a bit sad that we're the ones that have to push yourself, you have to push for this, as the individual, as someone who's had to live through this rather than someone in a position of power looking out for other people. And the fact that it's starting from the university level makes me a bit sad as well. Yes. You know, as I said, it starts from when you're young, it should be all the way through the education system, and not just at university levels. What, what would you What do you make of that? Yeah,

Izzy De George: 22:03

I completely agree. And do I think it's interesting that you say that, that it's the people who have experienced it, who are making the change, and it shouldn't have to be, but I can't remember who I was discussing it with the other day, and they were like, it's one of those situations where you will never think it's going to happen to you. So you, you kind of don't really get involved in it too much. And although suicide is a massive thing, it's still it because I say all that. So mental health is obviously massive. I mean, we all have mental health. But there's a huge amount of us who have mental health issues, but because it's not spoken about the way that and the way that cancer is spoken about a lot of people know someone that's been affected by cancer, but or has had cancer, but you don't know a lot of people who have had suicide because you can't have

Danny: 22:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Izzy De George: 22:50

So yeah. And that's the thing is that tend to live through it until that person has gone away. And I think until you've lived through it, you don't know how, how horrific It really is. And it is a shame that this is what it's got to be. But I think it's nice that there is a group of people who want to like I've ended up making so many connections with parents and siblings who have also lost lost people. And it's just like, It's awful. But it's good that these things are happening. But we shouldn't have to be, we shouldn't have to be doing this. We shouldn't be having to even have this conversation. We shouldn't be having these people who are affected by suicide. And there's so much that could be done as a preventative measure. It's not and you can't cure suicide. Once it's happened, it's happened. Yeah, so yeah, I just think there's a lot there. It's a such a shame that this has to happen and that we have to even be sat here having this conversation like I No offence I don't want to be I want to be I want to be living my life having my brother back but it's just not going to happen. So unfortunately, until you are affected, you're not going to realise how prominent it is in someone's life. And it is so different to another grief as well. In some ways, I'm not discouraged discounting any other grief, but it is completely different. From everything I've

Danny: 24:08

experienced. Yeah, you're spot on with the grief, like it is completely different. Like, not one isn't worse than the other. It's just how it affects you and how it's it varies from, you know, from person to person. And as well like grief through a suicide isn't like it differentiates from people, you know, it's not the same for a close friend as it is for a family member or, you know, a neighbour or whatever. It's I think for me when I reflect on suicide, or on death itself. That sounds really deep, but I sort of find myself in two mindsets, one. They've changed over the years but like I've had a long time It's been 15 years now. So I've had a long time to reflect. And I've, I've finally like, fine. I'm able to name and, you know, look at them for what they are. And the two mindsets are one where I'm, it's a little bit in the past, it's the whole, what could have I? What could I have done? What could have been different? How could I have been better? In a sense? Yeah. And the other is, how can I help so that someone doesn't have to go through this? And it's, I think it's a mixture of those two that I'd like build a for me, it's, it's almost like a rage. I don't know how else to describe it. But it's just like a fire, that you go, okay. Right, something needs to happen. Because the, the changes that could have prevented something like this, or that can prevent someone from doing the same thing are so obvious, once you're on the inside, that it's ridiculous not to do anything. And I'm not saying that those people who don't do anything, or doing anything wrong, because it's incredibly difficult to come over something like this, and to push for something new. But yeah, once you're staring in the face, there's, it's just reaction, it's that something needs to happen. And I know what I'm gonna do it. But from someone from the outside, I guess it's really, especially if you haven't experienced that, it's extremely painful to open yourself up in that and find that empathy, to be able to listen and to fully understand and to try and act on it. But that's, that's where I think the policy again, bring back the policy. If it were to come in to a younger audience, I'd say or to the younger generation. Yeah. If you're able to handle the hand and them tools of empathy, and listening and understanding and, you know, just basic, very basic mental health tools. Who knows where they're going to be in a when they're adults in university, you know, that they might be not desensitised. But they might be more open to listening and caring about these experiences. So that then they can go and do something else with it. Yeah, just going on, on a ramble there. Sorry.

Izzy De George: 27:11

No, I know, I completely agree. I think like, it's like I've done the uni heads training recently. And just because it's literally a half an hour, and I had a chat with one of the guys who founded it and things. And I looked through it, and I was like, This is so easy as half of 20 minutes, half an hour elearning. And it's not a boring elearning. It's, it's a fun one, for as fun as it was so insightful in the sense of like, how you can help someone with potential suicidal thoughts or potential mental health problems. And I just think even just doing a short little elearning would be so beneficial. And this is brilliant, that unit has a bought out. But why isn't this going into secondary education? Because it says in it like, remember, talking about suicide for someone who potentially has suicidal thoughts isn't great putting the idea into their head, it's allowing them to open up and to have that communication with you. And it's such a taboo of you don't talk about suicide. And I think this this is something that I'm getting quite enraged about recently as the language around suicide I have really does my head and like people saying, committed to Yeah, killed himself, and I can't like I literally can't, if someone says I'm just like, it doesn't make sense. It's such an outdated

Danny: 28:29

word. And it's so disrespectful. I find it

Izzy De George: 28:33

Horrendous. I tweeted the BBC the other day. On line of duty, they said it's a did they kill themselves? And I was like, This isn't the BBC. Like, think about it. And I just think if we start that education and people younger, if we started off in secondary schools in phse, then people understand what hurt people but also that what the what conversations can help people open up as well. So it's definitely before university that this is important. Like this needs to be massively infiltrated through the whole of the education system.

Danny: 29:06

Do you do I've got two questions. But first one Do you ever feel overwhelmed by Well, I'm guessing you've worked but Do you ever feel overwhelmed by the amount of while the mountain that standing in front of you huge Yeah, I'm,

Izzy De George: 29:21

it's so overwhelming at some points. I'm just like, I don't know what I've done here. And I can't stop because I've started and I don't want to I don't want to let people down. But I also don't want to let myself down on my brother. But I do feel really overwhelmed by it. And I think it's when I get like when I have I hate unread emails in my inbox like, at work, it stresses me out. I just don't like it. I like to have everything and having unread in emails and they're like lengthy, lengthy emails. I'm like, Oh my god, this is too much I can't like I just want to enjoy my life a bit. So it is overwhelming and then also just talking about The whole situation constantly is quite a lot. Yeah, I'm kind of just powering through and I plan to that I'm going to hibernate at the end of it. That's fair enough. I was gonna say, That's people,

Danny: 30:11

you need to make sure you're your first obviously, and not burn out. Because if it's just you running this thing, you know, and you burn yourself out, you're not gonna lose momentum. But at the same time you want to be, you want to be fine, like this. Every is the same for everyone. I think, like, no matter who they are, how evil they may seem, everyone at the end of the day just wants to be alright, and wants to be happy. Yeah, it's Yeah, definitely. You know, it's, it's a lot of factors to take in. And there's things that we feel we need to do or, you know, reactions to situations. But yeah, at the end of the day, you you deserve to feel Okay, anyway. So just make sure you're looking after yourself. Obviously, I shouldn't need to tell you. I shouldn't be telling you this but. I gotta tell you anyway, in case you haven't heard,

Izzy De George: 30:57

I said to other people constantly like to my students at the coffee shop, and I'm like, I'm a hypocrite.

Danny: 31:05

till midnight, looking at emails. Yeah. My second point was, I think one of the reflections I had was, is what you're doing is you do a push in for this campaign. And you create this movement, for example. On the cotton movement from an hour, yeah, right. Yeah. I call it making Making Moves, like I'm there. Is you making moves, highlighting the fact that because they are younger, they can't speak for themselves? Do you get what I mean? It's like, because you're an adult, and you're able to speak up, I guess, and speak up and out. Do you think it's then highlighting that there is an issue in younger education? Because they can't speak for themselves and be taken seriously? Yeah,

Izzy De George: 31:54

definitely. And I think even within university students, it highlights that the lack of voice that university students have actually, I think about myself back when I was 18. And I was given counselling at the university, but they weren't able to provide me with enough counselling sessions. Due to the fact I was a placement student. So I wasn't able to make every Wednesday at 4pm. Because I had to work a shift. So I got given two sessions. And that was just yeah. And I mean, this was a long time ago. Yeah, this was eight years ago. But because I then was put on Wednesday, I couldn't, I couldn't attend it. And they were like, well, if you want to join our service, again, you have to have a different counsellor, and I built up a relationship. But even after two sessions, you start to trust them. Yeah. And so, and I didn't I, I now look back on myself. And I didn't have a voice back then to say, hold on a second. That's not quite I don't agree with what you're saying. And that was, I was 18. At that point. And I still don't think I have enough of a voice to say, I don't agree with what you're doing. And I would have started the campaign as an 18 year old, I think. I mean, obviously, the situation leading up to this point has definitely made me start the campaign. But even if that happened back then I wouldn't, I wouldn't have I wouldn't have had the voice to and I can just think about how much of a voice even secondary students have, they have much less of a voice? And that's because you don't have the confidence because you think that there's a bunch of adults, and even now in this campaign, I'm speaking to some amazing, proper adults. But I'm like, Are there any? Are there really, I don't, and I'm just, I'm just like a bit of a teenager just. Yeah. And even in that I still don't feel like I've got the confidence that I'm a 25 year old woman. Yeah, I don't think people have the confidence to speak up for themselves.

Danny: 33:40

So one of my thoughts on this, I'll try and keep it as brief as possible is that we, within our society, we've built up this sort of this, what's it called? Oh, try not to delve too much into it, because I could go on for about 20 minutes. But essentially, this is the socialist construct, that they are an adult, you must give them all your respect, and you you will be quiet and you know, you are a child, your child, they are big, they're an adult. That's it. And I don't feel as you get older, people start treating you differently until you reach University, and then they go over, you're an adult now, but then you're still treated as a child in so many respects. Like, for me, I didn't go start, go, I didn't go to university straightaway. I went on our worked, and did whatever. And then at 2122, I decided to go to university. And I found that now upon reflection, I was more of a child in my first year at university than I had been since I was 16 or 17. Because just the way I had been treated within University and I remember I don't I don't conciously remember being immature or acting like a child? But I know I did. I know I did. So yeah, what you're saying about like, not having the confidence. It's, it's scary like like, Well, how do you Yeah, you're always going to be a step behind. In a sense.

Izzy De George: 35:19

It is interesting what you say that that you were more of a child in your first year of uni than you were like 18 19 20 year olds, and I now think about people who didn't go to uni, I consider them the adults, because they're the ones who have been working for all this time. They've got houses, they've got cars, they've got all of the material stuff and kids and things. And I'm like, I'm still a child, because I almost had all three years of my life kind of acting as a pseudo adult, like, you're not really here nor there, you don't, you're treated like an adult in some respect, you're treated like a child, you don't have the responsibilities in some ways. And it's, it's actually really confused. Yeah, well, this

Danny: 35:57

is what I mean by it's a social construct, because you're told you're an adult, when you have, you have a car, you have a family, you have a wife, you know, these are really old ideas, you know, having a family you don't, or having kids to have a fa like you, it doesn't need to be that way. Like, we're free to do whatever we want. Yes, because you own a house, you have your own X amount a year, you have a car, it doesn't make it automatically make you an adult, but from what our society is, like the Western society, consumerism has told us, this is what you need. So you need to buy a house, you need to buy a car, you have kids, you can pay for them to go to, you know, all of their things. And then we're just buying

Izzy De George: 36:38

that's what defines success, isn't it? Exactly, yeah. And that's what you see, you see the successful people as the ones who have the cars. And actually, it's not the ones who have cracking jobs, and have actually a really good standard of living, and they have a really happy life. But because they rent, they're a child, or they're kind of a teenager, they don't have children. I don't have a car, I don't have anything if I passed away, not listening, I literally have a laptop. And I would therefore not be deemed as an adult in a sense, because there's nothing that I have exactly it really interesting is a social construct. And it's a way that society has really put that on us. And it's hard to live up to that to that life. Exactly.

Danny: 37:20

Yeah. Trying to be told that this is what you need to succeed. It's, it's crippling in some senses, you know, like how we like you. What you seriously expecting everyone to become a boring banker, no offence to any bankers who are listening. You might not be boring, but you know, I mean, my best friend's a bank, boring day job. So there you go. Fair Play. Fair Play. She's a bit she's the biggest child, I've only just learned how to start cooking. So Oh. But that's,

Izzy De George: 37:54

oh, yeah, she's something else. Shout out to you, Jen.

Danny: 37:58

Fair play like never too late to learn. But these, these are like, really, they're very generic. And they're very high standards to me, if you if you don't fit in, with what the education system and what society are looking for, from you. Which is, I think, now thinking about it, if you were a government in charge of education, and those are your goals, mental health isn't going to come into that at all. Because in their, in their eyes, who gives a shit. If you're happy, as long as you get the job done. We don't care about you. But the way I see it is on the flip side, if you prioritise mental health, rather than the success of out in the car, or the success of earning 50 grand a year, if you remove that and promote the success of feeling good about yourself for being happy, like, I don't, I don't see. I don't see a negative side to that. Because if you have a happy society, or a happy population, that relatively enjoy where they are and what they're doing. Like, imagine the things that we'd be able to be we'd be capable of coming up with and doing with a happy society. You know, sorry, I'm thinking of like, a utopia but like, no, yeah, it's it's scary.

Izzy De George: 39:26

I think that's so interesting, because I think about it and it's not the things like not having a car or not having a house that have given me setbacks in my life and held you back. It's, it's my mental health, which has held me back is my self worth my feeling of happiness, and I dunno. living up to my own expectations. It's never i don't i don't care that I don't have a car. It doesn't bother me. I don't need one. But what I do care about is my mental health and what I wake up feeling every day being like, I feel alright today, okay, I can I can get on with my job. I'm not about like, oh, I've got a car that I can drive to Tesco. Okay, yeah. Yeah.

Danny: 40:05

It's Yeah, as I said, it's for me, it's that that's, that's the mountain I see in front of me anyway, have, you know, I'm a person who would start with a thought and then it'll snowball and I'm like, we got a, we got to overhaul everything we need to change society completely. And then I just get wound up and grumpy. All right, it's never gonna happen. But you know, changes like, with it, just just your campaign, just one simple movement. You know, it can make a world of difference. It's not, it's not going to be perfect, and it's not going to fit everyone. But that's just mental health. That's just life. It's never going to be perfect. Because if you strive for perfection, you're just going to fail. Well, I say you're going to fail, you're not going to achieve it. failures. Good. Then you can learn but it's never gonna happen. And yeah, it's gonna consistently they've stopped that. But no, this is. Yeah, it's really encouraging for people like me. Yeah, it's, it's really cool to see what you're doing anyway.

Izzy De George: 41:09

Thank you. It's quite cool. The campaign's quite cool.

Danny: 41:13

Yeah, it is. Fucking the amount of work you're putting into it as well, life. Thank you. By the way, I should have said this at the very beginning. But thank you, by the way for taking time out to actually chat with me. Like, hearing about it, I feel so guilty. I'm like, Oh, no.

Izzy De George: 41:32

Honestly, I did my first podcast on Saturday with a friend from home. And I really enjoyed it because I was. So this is a bit of a confession. I don't listen to podcasts. I try to, I can't do it. So the only ones I can listen to a funny ones. And I'm always hanging out and I forget what's going on. So I then turn it off or listen to me. But I can't listen to mental health podcast because I feel like it's in my head so much. I then start resonating with everything. And I'm like, I feel shame.

Danny: 41:56

Yeah. And I feel the exact same

Izzy De George: 41:59

sceptical, and then I was like, Oh, my God, but I did the one on Saturday. I was I had a great time. So I was like, yeah, buzzing to do this today. Yeah, I love it.

Danny: 42:07

So you met Kier Starmer, talk to me about him. What's he like?

Izzy De George: 42:13

He was so so lovely. I was working it beforehand. I was literally shaking, like, Oh, my gosh, kiss Salma. And he was just so nice. He's my local MP. And I sent him an email basically about the campaign. Didn't expect to hear anything back from him. Because the out of office type thing said, We're extremely busy. So it's unlikely you'll hear from us. And I heard back within three days or something and his head of what his policy and communications officer and he wrote was emailed me back and she's so so lovely, and was like, Kier, would love to set up a meeting with you. What can you do? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, okay. And then it was Monday, Monday afternoon, I just filmed for ITV News. So it was a very bizarre Monday as it is. And I got an email through and I was like, it was like, Kier will meet with you on Friday. And I literally was like, remember, like, Oh, God, Kier Starmer! Okay, that's fine. Yeah, don't worry about that. Um, but he was lovely. He was so receptive, he was very much like, I completely agree with you. So I went in, there was kind of an agenda, but it just ended up as a chat, which was really lovely. His idea was to go for a cross party approach. And so he was like, send me your policy or your proposal. And let me work through it and whatnot. So I've heard back from Annie rose the past couple of days, so they've passed it on to the shadow Education team. But he was just really, really nice. He was very, very down to earth. He was very much like, I'm so sorry. And I really have no words for you. And I was just, he's, he was a genuine bloke. He was like, a bit like a dad without being rude. I mean, I hope so. Come on Kier. Um, but yeah, so he's been great. And then so my friend works for the Labour Party. So it's old school friend. Oh, and contacted me over LinkedIn. Yeah, which is cool. And he was like I wrote for the Labour Party. I'm more than happy to give you a hand on bits that you need. So we had a phone call. And he has been amazing because he knows how MPs work. So I sent him over my proposal he put it into like mp speak. He then found all the email addresses for all the shadow like education, universities and mental health ministers and the current government ones and various other people as well, like the chair of APBG's have to do with universities and stuff. Things I have no idea drafted every email for me and was literally amazing. So I had a meeting with Regina Allen columns. Team on Wednesday, the shadow mental health minister. Um, yeah, she unfortunately couldn't make it. But her team was so so lovely. I know But they were like, we'll set up a meeting if we can with the Education team, the Education team have emailed me back as well like the shadow Education team. being like, this is so interesting. And it's pretty good because the universities, the shadow universities, Minister, Matt, Western has literally just come into post. So hopefully he'll be looking for further projects and stuff. So trying to get this to him, like come on. Party have been amazing. I've also emailed this over to a lot of the current government ministers, and I've had some interesting responses. Essentially, they don't really want to know who I am. Unsurprising. Yeah, not surprised. So Nadine Dorries team said that they actively encourage university students to sign up to a GP, that's like, great. That's really good. I saw it and I saw I saw it. And I was like, I can't even read this. I was like, I'm not ruining my day with this. So I sat there and read through the last night and I was like, I can't, I really can't even so it was registered with your GP, we're putting all this money into mental health funding, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're too busy to meet with you. I'm sorry. Okay, fine. Fair enough. I get that you're a busy person, but your reply is shit. And then Gavin Williamson, his team replied, as well. So the education minister, and it was Gavin's far too busy to meet with you. We think that universities have managed the mental health of their students best out of any one. So that's why we put the onus onto them. And we actively encouraged what even actively, we encourage them to look at different frameworks like student mental health, charter, etc. and good luck with your campaign. Goodbye. Okay. I wasn't surprised, and that's the thing. And my friend, my friend who from the Labour Party was like, I'm so sorry that I put you through this. I was like, it's not. It's not upset me. I didn't feel upset. I was like, This is exactly what I expected. And it's just added further traction to look what needs to happen. Universities clearly aren't doing enough. how can how can they say that university is doing enough and literally at the top of the email says, we really appreciate what needs to be done. And then it says the universities know the students best. They don't. It's so contradictory. And it's also it's quite, I mean, quite confusing the way that it's all worded as well. And it's also from unmonitored email addresses. So there's no way I can respond to it. So of course, just getting in through the opposition instead for now.

Danny: 47:30

I mean, I would write to my local MP, but she

Unknown: 47:36

she is also conservative. Well, I'm biassed, I'm biassed I see.

Danny: 47:45

She I checked what she votes on she didn't vote. She voted no on the school meals and the and the nurses pay rise and stuff. So I haven't written to her because I send her nasty tweets every now and again, just reminding her of what she does. It's so unsurprising about the replies. And yeah, it's so disappointing at the same time, because it is yes. I really find it hard to find the words to describe like the emotions you go through when you know full well what they're doing is wrong, yet you feel so powerless, because they're the ones in charge. And they feel but at the same time they're not.

Izzy De George: 48:30

Yeah, I just, I'm baffled by it. And I'm so disappointed. But equally I'm not. I kind of expected this, I didn't think they would be particularly interested. And I'm just glad that I do have some backing from some influential people. And just all we can hope for is a another general election very soon. Yeah.

Danny: 48:47

I mean, one of the most important things is to for yourself as I go through it when I'm trying when I tried to do stuff at my university, but especially for you right now, because I think the more attraction you get, I think the more push you might receive, but it's just to remind yourself constantly that you are doing the right thing, no matter what anyone else says this, this is the right thing to do. And this is something that needs to be done. So fuck the Tories if they tell you that they think they're doing and I completely agree. I'd like I'd like them to speak to all the families of everyone who's been affected by this. And yeah, not look at the numbers go, Oh, well, we've had a pandemic or Oh, they're down a little bit from last year. It doesn't fucking matter. You know, as long as one is enough, suicide is too many luckily enough. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on, because you mentioned about like, what they were doing for the current government what they're doing in terms of mental health. What what are your thoughts and opinions on their campaigns as in promoting mental health services or sending people Like, did they send them? Or was it their charity? I think it was their own charity. They had heads up the Royal Yeah. Mental Health one what what do you make of all of these campaigns? How do you feel about them?

Izzy De George: 50:14

I think they're a publicity stunt. I think I think that they are doing it because they need to, it needs to look like they're doing it. And I feel this, universities do exactly the same. They say that we're doing x, y, and Zed and you actually look into it. And that's suicide that that university their suicide rates are far, far too many. I think that what the government push for, by Dr. Alex, for example, they put him into position in that in that place, because they It was not from Dr. Alex's perspective, but from them. It was a PR exercise. Because, look, we've got an influencer and he worked through the pandemic. Thank you. He is very, very good and like fairplay, but they're saying that they extra sense 9 million pounds is contrary it's not it's just 79 million pounds, which was already allocated to him in the budget, it was already allocated to children's mental health, and it is all look, we are doing something we're doing something definitely. But you look into it, you look into the reprise that I'm getting you look into the replies of other families who are trying to do things. And it's the same answers that we think we're doing enough. And you're not. I don't believe in what they have to say at all. And I think, I mean, it's so much deeper rooted than just the just the services that they are providing on kind of like a on a media level. Like, for example, did you watch the Roman Kemp documentary, The the silent imagines I

Danny: 51:41

didn't know I saw it, publicly publicised, but I haven't watched it now.

Izzy De George: 51:46

So it was really good. And it was really interesting, because he followed the crisis team for a little bit. And on the crisis team is like a medical nurse and a police officer. And they had a call out because someone tried to take their own life, and they had to leave them afterwards, they deemed that person is safe, and they had to leave them. I mean, you wouldn't do the same. And that's and that's not there. It's because there was not the provisions once you get into hospital, they'll keep people for 24 hours and then send them off. And it's because there is not the funding there. And you wouldn't do that with someone with who had just had a heart attack. You wouldn't. And it like it didn't the lack of funding really, really highlights that this is a PR exercise. They're saying that they care about people's well being they don't? Because where's that money? where's where's our services, because they're clearly not

Danny: 52:39

100% agree with you. They're like, as soon as I saw it, my initial reaction was, fuck sake, it's happening again, because it's always the same. Like, to be fair, maybe an influencer is might be a good move now, but it's, it's the same, I'm saying the same thing every single time. It's, it's when I speak to people, it's not just talk to your friends. Because this, this sort of ties everything in telling that message of you can talk to a friend or open up to someone close to you or just speak, right? That message there is an extremely individualistic mindset, where the the responsibility isn't on the government. And it's not on the infrastructures, and it's not on the medical staff or it's not on anyone else, but it's on you. So if you can go and take that advice and take it to a friend. But what happens if that friend's not capable of helping you out? What then not only are you damaging them, but you're damaging yourself and then what? You know. So that's how, you know a crisis begins. That's how you start to believe that like the world is at this wonderful place that you've been promised. So it's such a hollow system, where local, always look at all this money, look at all of look at these stats, but there's nothing behind them. Whereas the mental health stats, look at all of these stats, and then there's a million voices behind them. Like, like, like in this podcast, which is, again, this podcast, I keep on saying this to people is not just a podcast for people to come to where they can reflect or they can learn something new. This is a database of people's experiences and voices, so that when people look at the stats, they can come here and go, Oh, actually, that's what it's like to be a young person, or I know we're targeted at men specifically, but it that shouldn't take away from anything in a matter of fact, we're just a small percentage of the general population. So the fact that they have Royals doing rounds or an influencer that's been hired to do all of these things. They're great if you have the proper infrastructure in place. The fact that a police officer and an ambulance driver have to leave someone who was suicidal earlier that day is it's a disgrace. Like you said, if someone fell down the stairs and broke their leg, you won't just bandage it up and go, alright, you have class, see you later. You know, it's, and then it again, it's not in their control that their respondent, they're following protocol, or following protocol that's been set up by someone higher up.

Izzy De George: 55:33

So because they're so stretched, I think it's interesting what you say about the bandaging is So, for example, so I've, I've had, I've had anxiety, depression for years. And if I had broken bones, for eight years, you'd have someone investigating that that's not just a GP. And yet, I'm still at the GP, because there is nowhere else for me to go. And I'm not faulting my GP or anything, it's just, there is no further for them to put it on to unless you were literally, in a sense, got very, very severe mental health illness. And we wouldn't ever treat treat physical illness this way. So the fact that even after all these years of all make sure you're talking make sure that we're talking about mental health, that this is still happening. It is a hollow system, as you say of talk about it, but what happens next, you talk about it, and there's nothing to then help you out of it. So it's it is hollow. I

Danny: 56:26

completely agree. The second point we'll just talk about is the education behind it, you know, like what my my issue with the whole talk about before I realised that there's fucking nothing behind, you know, there's no thought behind those eyes behind that message is that I didn't know what to talk about. How do I express that? I don't know, the thoughts that go through my head that I don't even fully comprehend. How do I explain why my chest hurts when? I don't know? Yeah, like, so. I'm going to talk to you. But I'm not I'm not making sense. I don't know what I'm talking about. And then you're just like, yeah, feeling shit yourself. And then everyone's a loser. Except for Yeah, that was a top. But yeah, it's Yeah, I completely agree. It's, it's there something that can be changed about that, I'd like to believe so. And again, your campaign is a perfect example of that.

Izzy De George: 57:27

I feel like it's a drop in the ocean that and that's like, I'm pleased of what I'm doing. But I don't think that it's going to make society the way that I want society to be. It's not going to make universities the way that I want universities to be if it just for me, if it changes one person's life, then that's all I care about. But it is so frustrating that I'm having to go to all this effort, and I can't change the world.

Danny: 57:49

Well, one wise person once told me that the ocean is made of drops. So if that that's a good point. So I'll take that. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So just just not wrapping up, but for for yourself, what does the future then look like? I guess if we were talking about dropping the ocean just now. So nice segue. And I ruined it. But yeah, what does the future look like for you and the campaign maybe like any year or five years or 10 years.

Izzy De George: 58:20

And I mean, my ultimate goal is for every single university to have a look at they can have a look at the placement policies and the welding support that they've put in place, and to think that they honestly are doing enough for their students. And I just mainly want to open up that dialogue within universities, if I don't make the absolute change that I want, then. So be it, I understand that it's not going to be possible, but I want the dialogue to be opened and for universities to think actually all my all my policies supporting our placement students and and are we doing enough that we possibly currently doing within our remit for our placement of students. So that's one massive goal. And the other goal is for legislation to be created for the government to start taking the way that universities treat their students seriously. Because at the moment, I personally feel that university sees students as just something that's going to bring in their income, and they are just massive businesses, and they don't care enough about them. And they're not recognising the vulnerability of their students, and in my opinion, particularly the placement students as well. So yeah, legislation, I think that's probably going to take quite a few years, but I'll keep going for it and just do what by the end of the year, if I have 10 universities that have changed their policies or have created a student handbook or inserted anything to do with well being into the handbook, then I'm happy because that's potentially a number of students that have been have been helped. So yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens. Yeah,

Danny: 59:52

that sounds really good. And just, is there anything we can do as Unlike myself, or the listener that can do ourselves to help or to try and change anything. What can we do?

Izzy De George: 1:00:10

I think, if it's not University listeners, and you work for a business, and have a chat with your employer about what wellbeing provisions you've got in place, and actually people taking it seriously. So for example, one of my brother's friends, he's a uni student, he works in insurance. And he's kind of adapted the campaign and made sure that he's gone to his, his monitor and been like, what are we doing? Can we set up a men's forum for mental health. And I think, if that's what you can do, if you, if you have a place of work, or you have a course and you think actually there is room for a forum, it doesn't have to be madness, it can be anything, have a chat to them. If you feel like actually, your university aren't doing enough, speak up, really, really do speak up. But also, if you have any connections with universities, then please do get in contact with me. And that will just be so useful. Because equally, if you're a student, then you can join in on the meetings that I'm having. And it's so nice to have some backing from students because it's not just me, who's saying these things. It is students who agree with what I'm saying as well and you know, how your your systems work as well. But also just keep following keep liking the posts, I think the more the more social media interested gets, the more interested, bigger people will be in the campaign. So give me a following just like my posts.

Danny: 1:01:29

Just a big shout out to Izzy for giving me some of her time in her extremely busy schedule. And if you are interested in helping out or interested in finding out more information about the positive changes in placements campaign, you can find them on Instagram. Their link will be in the description of the podcast. And on there you can find Izzy's link tree, which has direct links to all of the stuff that she's doing all the articles and other podcast she's taking part of as well as a just giving page for donations. Everything else that was mentioned in the podcast will be met, there will be links down below in the comments section. And if you feel like listening to more episodes, I'm currently recording this in June, which is Pride Month. So we have a couple of episodes about the LGBTQ plus community. So you should go check them out, or head over to the Student Minds website an check out Student Space. If yo feel like you need a little bi of help. Other than that, than you so much for listening. An hopefully I can pop out one mor episode for the summer. Unti then, take care of yourself. B self compassionate, nothin wrong with a bit of sel forgiveness, and try and mak the most of the nice weather Nice, really good outside. Se you next time